Just had to mention...Toyota VS. Chevy

[07sienheaven]

We went to the beach yesterday and this older gentleman in a Dodge Sprinter got his rear axle stuck in the sand while attempting a three point turn. I immediately offered to pull him out with our van and tow strap. He didn't think the van could pull it out. Then this "dude" in a big Chevy 4wd pickup drove up and offered to pull his van out for $20. I was thinking to myself, dude are you kidding me, you're gonna charge the old man for this? I told the guy who was stuck, I will do it for free. The Chevy dude laughed at me as I was attaching the strap and getting ready. A bunch of surfers came buy for spectating as well. I jumped in my van, put it in first, let it roll until the strap was tug, and gave it a little gas. I thought for sure there would be some wheelspin since its FWD, but nothing but a little V6 growl and the huge van got pulled out. Winner, a 2007 Sienna FWD 3.5L. Loser, Chevy truck dude with the "how did that 'mini' van do it" look on his face. And the Prize, the pride of showing how a FWD Toyota minivan pulls out a HD. 6500lb. commercial van out of the sand. Just had to share

[romualds]

Really nice story :-) Thank you for sharing! When I started to read your story, I was sure you have AWD Senna.

Where did you attach the towing rope? Do you have a hitch?

BTW, I was always wondering where to attach a towing rope to Sienna in case of emergency. Most of cars sold in Europe has the front and rear hooks for towing but I haven't noticed anything like that on Sienna (and most other American cars).

[brian_bp]

Where did you attach the towing rope? Do you have a hitch?

BTW, I was always wondering where to attach a towing rope to Sienna in case of emergency. Most of cars sold in Europe has the front and rear hooks for towing but I haven't noticed anything like that on Sienna (and most other American cars).

This is a really annoying omission on some vehicles, including both our Sienna and my Ford Focus. The only recovery towing point is the hitch, for those of us who have one. The tie-down hooks are not safely usable for a tow rope since the rope will damage the bumper covers unless angled down sufficiently.

[07sienheaven]

Unfortunately our Sienna doesn't have much of a recovery point other than that cheap molded loop way up under the rear bumper. I have a hitch welded on the van with chain loops, so I just used that. I've recovered three vehicles like this before. Btw don't ever bother recovering a vehicle with the sienna going reverse. The reverse gear is so low (crawl ratio) that the van cannot move with such a load. Going forward on the other hand, awesome!! It has lots of torque to a get a load going.

[grandmama]

I can't believe someone would say "I can get you out for $20" to anyone. That 4WD guy had a chance to be a good citizen, but he decided to be an AXX

[brian_bp]

Btw don't ever bother recovering a vehicle with the sienna going reverse. The reverse gear is so low (crawl ratio) that the van cannot move with such a load. Going forward on the other hand, awesome!! It has lots of torque to a get a load going.

I don't understand this. As long as a gear ratio allows the desired speed of travel without hitting the engine's maximum speed, it can't be too low. The lower the gear ratio, the higher the torque available at the wheels. I can see a gear ratio being so low that it is too easy to break traction, and I can see the high engine speed making control difficult, but being unable to move doesn't make sense to me.

Reverse has an additional advantage, if you have a good place to attach the tow rope on the front (which the Sienna doesn't): any downward pull of the rope and load transfer due to the pulling force both increase traction on the end which is pulling, which could be useful with front wheel drive.

[brian_bp]

I can't believe someone would say "I can get you out for $20" to anyone. That 4WD guy had a chance to be a good citizen, but he decided to be an AXX

I agree!

[07sienheaven]

Btw don't ever bother recovering a vehicle with the sienna going reverse. The reverse gear is so low (crawl ratio) that the van cannot move with such a load. Going forward on the other hand, awesome!! It has lots of torque to a get a load going.

I don't understand this. As long as a gear ratio allows the desired speed of travel without hitting the engine's maximum speed, it can't be too low. The lower the gear ratio, the higher the torque available at the wheels. I can see a gear ratio being so low that it is too easy to break traction, and I can see the high engine speed making control difficult, but being unable to move doesn't make sense to me.

Reverse has an additional advantage, if you have a good place to attach the tow rope on the front (which the Sienna doesn't): any downward pull of the rope and load transfer due to the pulling force both increase traction on the end which is pulling, which could be useful with front wheel drive.

I totally agree and that's what was so puzzling to me when I helped recover a dodge caravan. I first tried to pull it out going in reverse and the rope attached to the front subframe, and nothing but revs. Actually the van would not rev past 3k in reverse with WOT, but then when I tried pulling the other van out going forward and the rope attached to the tow loop in the rear of our van, a little rev and wheelspin and the caravan was recovered. I can't explain that one but the only thing that would make sense to me is gearing, that is the reverse gear is set up for a "crawl" type of gearing. Another way to put it is, if I hit the gas going forward, that 3.5l will burn some rubber, but if I hot the fas in reverse, no burnout, but just pulling hard in reverse. Any thoughts?

[brian_bp]

Another way to put it is, if I hit the gas going forward, that 3.5l will burn some rubber, but if I hot the fas in reverse, no burnout, but just pulling hard in reverse.

That could simply be the result of better traction in reverse than in forward when under hard acceleration.

I first tried to pull it out going in reverse and the rope attached to the front subframe, and nothing but revs. Actually the van would not rev past 3k in reverse with WOT, but then when I tried pulling the other van out going forward and the rope attached to the tow loop in the rear of our van, a little rev and wheelspin and the caravan was recovered.

I find the limited engine speed surprising; perhaps this is governed to keep people from driving too quickly in reverse?

I can't explain that one but the only thing that would make sense to me is gearing, that is the reverse gear is set up for a "crawl" type of gearing.

A "crawl" ratio is very low or "short" (numerically high reduction ratio) gearing, which would cause a high engine speed. Perhaps reverse is too tall/high/(numerically low)? Reverse can have a ratio somewhere between that of first and second forward gears.

[tcp]

Just a theory:

Was the tow strap angled up from the sienna hitch to the other van? If so, as you put tension on the strap it will try to lift the rear of the van somewhat, thereby adding weight to the front wheels of the sienna and giving them more traction.
Also, does your van have traction control? if so it may also work going in reverse, thereby de-throttling the engine and limiting rpm to 3000. upward angle on the tow rope would also lift the front end somewhat, allowing for a moment of wheelspin and kicking the traction control on, not allowing the van to pull as well.

Just a thought.

Btw don't ever bother recovering a vehicle with the sienna going reverse. The reverse gear is so low (crawl ratio) that the van cannot move with such a load. Going forward on the other hand, awesome!! It has lots of torque to a get a load going.

I don't understand this. As long as a gear ratio allows the desired speed of travel without hitting the engine's maximum speed, it can't be too low. The lower the gear ratio, the higher the torque available at the wheels. I can see a gear ratio being so low that it is too easy to break traction, and I can see the high engine speed making control difficult, but being unable to move doesn't make sense to me.

Reverse has an additional advantage, if you have a good place to attach the tow rope on the front (which the Sienna doesn't): any downward pull of the rope and load transfer due to the pulling force both increase traction on the end which is pulling, which could be useful with front wheel drive.

I totally agree and that's what was so puzzling to me when I helped recover a dodge caravan. I first tried to pull it out going in reverse and the rope attached to the front subframe, and nothing but revs. Actually the van would not rev past 3k in reverse with WOT, but then when I tried pulling the other van out going forward and the rope attached to the tow loop in the rear of our van, a little rev and wheelspin and the caravan was recovered. I can't explain that one but the only thing that would make sense to me is gearing, that is the reverse gear is set up for a "crawl" type of gearing. Another way to put it is, if I hit the gas going forward, that 3.5l will burn some rubber, but if I hot the fas in reverse, no burnout, but just pulling hard in reverse. Any thoughts?

[kos99ngel]

Good story. What a idiot trying to charge the guy!

[kos99ngel]

I had somewhat of a similar story happen to me before. I was in Lake Havasu City, Arizona for the long weekend last month and the launch ramp for boat was real pack there was a lot of people trying to launch there boat and personal watercrafts. So my friend and I decided to go to a local area where you go down this dirt path and you can launch and set up your gazebo and have a good time keep in mind we where in the dirt its a bit sandy and stuff. Well he went down the dirt path and set up his SeaDoo (he was driving a Toyota Tundra 4x4) I was driving my 2000 Sienna with my Yamaha Wave Venture well I had no problem we set up next to each other had a blast with the personal watercraft it was time to go and I couldn't get out with my Sienna I was stuck the front wheels keep spinning. Luckily I have a tow rope in the tool box of the PWC trailer. He had to pull me out of there with the Tundra to the top of the hill no problem. Right when I was going up the hill a brand new Sienna was coming down I was thinking he was going to get stuck down there also. NO he din't he got real close to the shore he was there for a little while and went up the hill like nothing and it wasn't a AWD I was amazed and other 4x4 pick ups that where there where keep looking at the guy LOL. I guess I couldn't get out because of the weight of the trailer on the rear it din't let me make good contact with the front tires. IDK what is you guys opinion?

[brian_bp]

... I guess I couldn't get out because of the weight of the trailer on the rear it din't let me make good contact with the front tires. IDK what is you guys opinion?

Sure, that's a theory with logic behind it.

On the other hand, I don't really think that the tongue weight of a PWC trailer would transfer enough load off the Sienna's front tires to make a meaningful difference - since the towing ball is about 4 feet behind the rear axle and the wheelbase is 10 feet, about 40% of the tongue weight is levered off of the front axle, or 80 pounds with a 200 pound tongue weight (and the PWC trailer is probably less than that). 80 pounds is nothing to a two-ton front-heavy vehicle (maybe a 3% change). I think the trailer (which probably has tiny tires sunk into the surface) is just an anchor, holding the van back.

[Texastrooper]

What a moron... I loved to tow people out of the snow with my 4x4 Tracker. Did it twice this winter. I am sure I will miss my 4x4 the next winter since I just sold it. But I have chains for the 4WD Sienna... ;-)
But I also find it stupid that the Sienna has no tow hooks. Fortunately I have a hitch.

[07sienheaven]

I personally think its a gearing issue with the sienna in regards to the power deficiency in reverse. My old 01 Rav4 had this similar issue as well where the first forward gear was set up for torque launchlay and the reverse was set up perfectly for traction enhancing "crawl" gearing. I guess the only other missing piece of the puzzle to my Dodge caravan recovery story was that we were in Lake Tahoe where the elevation was between 4-5k. That whole time up there I definitely felt an overall power decrease, but the whole issue with going in reverse really baffled me. Other than that situation, I really haven't had issues pulling in reverse as I have towed up 5k and had no problem backing up in reverse. As for me, since there is no tow hook in the front, there is a long front overhang on the van, and in fear of the reverse gear issue, I will just recover from the back of the van going forward no problems there for sure