5 Point Nut on the Spare Tire Winch?
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Thread: 5 Point Nut on the Spare Tire Winch?

  1. #1
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    5 Point Nut on the Spare Tire Winch?

    I just had the spare tire assembly replaced on my 2004 Toyota Sienna. The problem is that my original lug wrench does not fit the nut used to pull the tire up and down. The nut is a 5 point rather than the standard 6 point nut. Do any of you have a 5 pointed lug wrench? The repair shop doesn't know why it is a 5 point nut and neither does the Toyota dealership.

    I have found a few 5 point sockets online, but I am unsure about which dimension to purchase. Any ideas?





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  3. #2
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    Re: 5 Point Nut on the Spare Tire Winch?

    Really? 5-point?

    I would demand a wrench to go with it (at no extra charge), or replacement with a correct part that has the correct hex drive nut... but I have been known to be a little demanding.

    Does a new Sienna have this stupid arrangement? 5-point fasteners are usually used for security, to reduce tampering by people who are not authorized to open something and thus don't have the obscure tool; this would seem to be the complete opposite of the spare tire winch situation.

    I wonder if you are looking at the wrong fastener, and not the drive nut? I've made mistakes like that (be mistaken about how something is supposed to work), so I assume others do as well.

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    Re: 5 Point Nut on the Spare Tire Winch?

    Brian,

    Yea my feelings toward the automotive repair shop is starting to turn.

    "Does a new Sienna have this stupid arrangement? 5-point fasteners are usually used for security, to reduce tampering by people who are not authorized to open something and thus don't have the obscure tool; this would seem to be the complete opposite of the spare tire winch situation."

    That was my initial thought, but maybe the newer Toyota Sienna minivans use 5 point lug nuts on the wheel for security? If so, then the engineers would have made the spare tire nut drive a 5 point as well, since both lug nuts and the nut drive utilize the same spare tire wrench.

    I'm positive I'm looking at the right part. I hand cranked the cable so it would not dangle close to the ground. It looks like the nut drive has a set key. Maybe they will change it out for me.

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    Re: 5 Point Nut on the Spare Tire Winch?

    Quote Originally Posted by rbd929
    ... maybe the newer Toyota Sienna minivans use 5 point lug nuts on the wheel for security? If so, then the engineers would have made the spare tire nut drive a 5 point as well, since both lug nuts and the nut drive utilize the same spare tire wrench.
    Sure, this reasoning makes sense to me, but obscure fastener drives (such as this pentagon, or Torx with a post in the middle) only provide a little bit of security, since once one has the tool, it works everywhere that type is used. Wheel locks use "puzzle" patterns which are unique for each vehicle, like a key, providing a more useful level of security.

    I've never seen a 5-point wheel nut, and Toyota does not use them on the Sienna.

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    Re: 5 Point Nut on the Spare Tire Winch?

    As I have just mentioned in Re: Old school needs help from the new school, the 2011 Sienna does indeed have a 5-point drive nut on the spare winch. It also has a special matching socket, which is driven by the jack handle. The wheel nuts, even on a 2011 with the five-point spare winch, have a normal hex shape.

    Sorry, I forgot to measure it, so I don't know the socket size. I don't even know offhand how it would be measured, because the convention for hex nuts is to measure across opposite flats, and those don't exist with an odd number of faces.

    I would be concerned about adopting this 2011 configuration, because if the 5-point socket is lost there is no tool to turn the winch. This is a concern for a 2011 owner, but at least the socket is somewhat securely held in a special bracket in the tool access cover; a 2004 has no such provision, so it would be easier to misplace the socket.

    The version with a six-point drive nut - as I confirmed our 2004 has - should still be available as the correct replacement part for a 2004.

    Quote Originally Posted by rbd929
    The repair shop doesn't know why it is a 5 point nut and neither does the Toyota dealership.
    The dealership staff doesn't know that the 2011 has a five-point because they are too lazy or not bright enough to walk out on the showroom floor and look at one? Or they don't know why Toyota chose a five-point? I can only shake my head at the first possibility, and for the second I refer to the 2011 topic.

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    Re: 5 Point Nut on the Spare Tire Winch?

    There is a very clear drawing of the five-point "spare tire clamp bolt" under the carpet on page 699 of the owner's manual.

    My guess as to why they went to using an adapter socket with the jack handle, instead of the wheel nut wrench used in the Gen 2 Siennas, is that people were breaking the spare tire carrier assembly when they raised the spare back into the stored position. They likely broke the cable because they could get too much torque with the wheel nut wrench. You cannot get as much leverage with the jack handle.
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    Re: 5 Point Nut on the Spare Tire Winch?

    At about 6 PM this evening, my wife called me to report a flat tire on our 'new to us' 2008 Sienna LE. She hit some debris on I-84, and by the time she got off a nearby exit and into a parking lot, the tire was nearly flat. I pulled out the 'winch' tool and nut driver, and much to my surprise it has 5 points!

    Looking at the electronic owners manual I recently downloaded, page 475, figure Y40082 when blown up clearly shows a 6 point nut on the winch shaft. According to my service printout, my van had a recall / service campaign for a spare winch issue (?) - maybe more than one time (?), and it looks shiny new. Are they upgrading Gen 2 vans with Gen 3 assemblies?
    '08 Sienna LE (FWD) in Slate Metallic, '02 and '14 Subaru Outback wagons
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    Re: 5 Point Nut on the Spare Tire Winch?

    my 2005 non upgraded unit has a hex nut that the lug wrench fits onto. The recall replacement must be 5.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fibber2
    At about 6 PM this evening, my wife called me to report a flat tire on our 'new to us' 2008 Sienna LE. She hit some debris on I-84, and by the time she got off a nearby exit and into a parking lot, the tire was nearly flat. I pulled out the 'winch' tool and nut driver, and much to my surprise it has 5 points!

    Looking at the electronic owners manual I recently downloaded, page 475, figure Y40082 when blown up clearly shows a 6 point nut on the winch shaft. According to my service printout, my van had a recall / service campaign for a spare winch issue (?) - maybe more than one time (?), and it looks shiny new. Are they upgrading Gen 2 vans with Gen 3 assemblies?

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    Re: 5 Point Nut on the Spare Tire Winch?

    Quote Originally Posted by Narboza
    There is a very clear drawing of the five-point "spare tire clamp bolt" under the carpet on page 699 of the owner's manual.
    Good reference; of course rbd929 and I don't have 2011 owners' manuals to check.

    Quote Originally Posted by Narboza
    My guess as to why they went to using an adapter socket with the jack handle, instead of the wheel nut wrench used in the Gen 2 Siennas, is that people were breaking the spare tire carrier assembly when they raised the spare back into the stored position. They likely broke the cable because they could get too much torque with the wheel nut wrench. You cannot get as much leverage with the jack handle.
    An interesting possibility; I have added this to my speculation about possible reasons in the topic in the 2011 forum.

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    Re: 5 Point Nut on the Spare Tire Winch?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fibber2
    ... our 'new to us' 2008 Sienna LE...
    I pulled out the 'winch' tool and nut driver, and much to my surprise it has 5 points!
    Are you saying that you have the same tools in the factory location as shown in the photos which I just posted to Re: Old school needs help from the new school?

    If so, it looks like perhaps the changeover occurred sometime still in the second generation, after 2005 but by 2008.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fibber2
    Are they upgrading Gen 2 vans with Gen 3 assemblies?
    That's not an upgrade, unless the five-point socket is supplied and properly mounted; otherwise, a correct six-point driven winch should be provided for vehicles which had that as original equipment.

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    Re: 5 Point Nut on the Spare Tire Winch?

    My 08 has a 6 point hex nut so had to be sometime after that.

    edit: Had the spare tire recall inspection done months back but did not go back for the fix maybe that(5 point nut) is the fix ? Fibber did you have the spare tire recall fix done or was it done when you bought ?
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    Re: 5 Point Nut on the Spare Tire Winch?

    Glad I checked again, because I didn't read & explore far enough...

    Looking at the 2005 Owners Manual (available from this site), it appears that the standard spare winch nut was 6 points. All diagrams show the 'tire iron' (wedge on one side for removing wheel covers, 6 point socket on other) as the tool for both lowering the winch, and for removing the lug nuts. The 'speed crank' tool attached to the door and shown in these manuals was only intended for working the jack. Looking at my Owners Manual (hardcopy) and softcopy available for download from toyota.com/owners site, beginning in 2008 they show A & B versions, with A = 6 pts and the tireiron, and B = 5 pts and the adapter socket. Skipping ahead to 2009/2010, they exclusively show the 5 pt socket and the speed driver doing the winch lowering.

    I bought my '08 in early March. From the service printout, I see 'spare tire carrier' mentioned on 8/14/2010 & again when reconditioned for resale this February. It looks like around $200 for this and another $45 for floormat (acceleration issue?) inspection, all charged to Warranty Pay. How much hardware was changed is difficult to determine. The cable looks new, the 'nut' is 5 point & parts of the housing look new, but the cable guide tube looks original. Hard to tell... There are also three very new sponge rubber blocks (front of van) to complement the two steel welded brackets towards the rear as a resting place for the spare tire. So did it start life with 6 pts or 5 pts? I'll probably never know....

    Quote Originally Posted by brian_bp
    Are you saying that you have the same tools in the factory location as shown in the photos which I just posted to Re: Old school needs help from the new school?
    Not quite. I assume that is the picture from the 2011? I don't have a snap-in retainer for the new 5 point driver in my door. I found my driver in a vinyl sleeve, stuffed into the scissor jack's vehicle siderail adapter. My 'speed crank' and a bag for the tire are attached to this door. This is how it shows it in the 2009/2010 .pdf manual

    Quote Originally Posted by brian_bp
    If so, it looks like perhaps the changeover occurred sometime still in the second generation, after 2005 but by 2008.
    It looks like some time in 2008. Toyota web site 2009/2010 has a nice new layout with a new pink trimmed sheet that gives great detail on how to use the 5 pt socket and speed driver on the spare. For older Gen 2 vans, the recall retrofit kit probably supplies the redesigned corrosion & breakage resistant hardware as a fix to the vans that don't pass the inspection. Nowhere are there any instructions on using this new 5 pt driver and the speed crank for lowering the spare tire on my car. Major shortcoming in the retrofit kit, as there should have been an instruction label pasted to the door warning of the new procedure.

    Quote Originally Posted by brian_bp
    Are they upgrading Gen 2 vans with Gen 3 assemblies?
    ......
    That's not an upgrade, unless the five-point socket is supplied and properly mounted; otherwise, a correct six-point driven winch should be provided for vehicles which had that as original equipment.
    My comment was meant to be mildly sarcastic..... Again, the changes should have all been clearly labeled. But in reality, some 2008 & all 2009/2010 look to have come this way.
    '08 Sienna LE (FWD) in Slate Metallic, '02 and '14 Subaru Outback wagons
    Sienna:
    Enabled DRL & VIP RS3200 Security
    Curt 13256 2 receiver hitch & Air Lift 1000 rear spring bags
    Fog lights, mud guards, & door sill protectors
    Avery Touring custom grey carpet 3 piece floor mat set
    Continental Extreme Winter on Sport Edition F7 rims, TMPS & ATEQ reset tool
    8yr/125k $0 deductible Platinum warranty

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    Re: 5 Point Nut on the Spare Tire Winch?

    Small sidetrack here...
    Quote Originally Posted by Fibber2
    Looking at my Owners Manual (hardcopy) and softcopy available for download from toyota.com/owners site, beginning in 2008 they show A & B versions, with A = 6 pts and the tireiron, and B = 5 pts and the adapter socket. Skipping ahead to 2009/2010...
    I registered with MyToyota at Toyota Owners Online, and registered my Sienna by VIN. Fibber2, are you saying that once you register one specific vehicle, you can see material (owners manuals in this case), for other years? In the Owner's Manuals page, I see only a selection from the list of vehicles in my profile.

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    Re: 5 Point Nut on the Spare Tire Winch?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fibber2
    Quote Originally Posted by brian_bp
    Are you saying that you have the same tools in the factory location as shown in the photos which I just posted to Re: Old school needs help from the new school?
    Not quite. I assume that is the picture from the 2011?
    Yes, that topic is specific to the 2011 (it's in the 2011 (January 2010+) 3rd Generation Toyota Sienna sub-forum), and the photos were taken a couple of days ago in a showroom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fibber2
    I don't have a snap-in retainer for the new 5 point driver in my door. I found my driver in a vinyl sleeve, stuffed into the scissor jack's vehicle siderail adapter. My 'speed crank' and a bag for the tire are attached to this door. This is how it shows it in the 2009/2010 .pdf manual
    The adapter in a plastic sleeve would concern me. After a few years of winter temperatures occasionally getting down to -40 degrees (C or F), plastic bags - including specifically vinyl - tend to disintegrate. I wouldn't want to be fishing around in that compartment hoping to find the adapter after the sleeve shatters.

    I might consider clipping the adapter in place (somewhere in the compartment with the jack) through its loop with a carabiner-style clip or snap hook, but some sort of padding or strap (maybe a velcro strap?) would be needed to avoid rattling.

    I would still worry about misplacing the stupid thing and being stuck unable to run the spare winch with anything other than big pliers or a pipe wrench.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fibber2
    Quote Originally Posted by brian_bp
    If so, it looks like perhaps the changeover occurred sometime still in the second generation, after 2005 but by 2008.
    It looks like some time in 2008. Toyota web site 2009/2010 has a nice new layout with a new pink trimmed sheet that gives great detail on how to use the 5 pt socket and speed driver on the spare. For older Gen 2 vans, the recall retrofit kit probably supplies the redesigned corrosion & breakage resistant hardware as a fix to the vans that don't pass the inspection. Nowhere are there any instructions on using this new 5 pt driver and the speed crank for lowering the spare tire on my car. Major shortcoming in the retrofit kit, as there should have been an instruction label pasted to the door warning of the new procedure.
    It appears that we are stuck with 5-point-drive replacements for our 6-point-drive units, that rbd929 should have been given the adapter along with his replacement, that any pre-2011 installation does not handle the adapter well, and that the retrofit was not well planned... which is strange, given how long Toyota took to go ahead with it.


    Who would have thought that this question would lead to such a mystery?

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    Re: 5 Point Nut on the Spare Tire Winch?

    Quote Originally Posted by brian_bp
    Small sidetrack here...
    Quote Originally Posted by Fibber2
    Looking at my Owners Manual (hardcopy) and softcopy available for download from toyota.com/owners site, beginning in 2008 they show A & B versions, with A = 6 pts and the tire iron, and B = 5 pts and the adapter socket. Skipping ahead to 2009/2010...
    I registered with MyToyota at Toyota Owners Online, and registered my Sienna by VIN. Fibber2, are you saying that once you register one specific vehicle, you can see material (owners manuals in this case), for other years? In the Owner's Manuals page, I see only a selection from the list of vehicles in my profile.
    You sure can. Sign in, and go to the pulldown for "Manuals", and "Owners Manuals". Under "Sort By" pick 'All Toyota Vehicles'. Select the year, model, and any search argument to narrow the number of .pdf files. It's a great resource for tracking feature changes like this one!
    '08 Sienna LE (FWD) in Slate Metallic, '02 and '14 Subaru Outback wagons
    Sienna:
    Enabled DRL & VIP RS3200 Security
    Curt 13256 2 receiver hitch & Air Lift 1000 rear spring bags
    Fog lights, mud guards, & door sill protectors
    Avery Touring custom grey carpet 3 piece floor mat set
    Continental Extreme Winter on Sport Edition F7 rims, TMPS & ATEQ reset tool
    8yr/125k $0 deductible Platinum warranty

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