EXTREMELY DANGEROUS safety issue on 2011 toyota sienna

[Not2fat1]

The van is keyless entry/start/stop. One day, I pressed the start/stop button to turn off the vehicle BUT NEGLECTED TO PUT THE VEHICLE IN PARK!!! There were no warning sounds or other noticable warnings of what was about to happen.

The car shut off but INSTEAD OF THE CAR STAYING IN GEAR or park) - THE VEHICLE JUST STARTED ROLLING BACKWARDS.

THIS IS A MAJOR FLAW. This is my son's wheelchair van. (severely injured combat Marine - paralyzed from neck down and cognitively impaired. Completely helpless.) If I would have exited the vehicle to start the process of getting him unloaded, I could have been run over and he could have been seriously injured or killed if the van had rolled into traffic!

I can't believe our van is the only one with this issue. Has anyone else had this happen? I would suggest you see if your van has the same issue before someone is killed or severely wounded.

[happycamper]

I have three vehicles in the garage, and they all can be shut off while it is in gear. My manual transmission Honda will happily roll away if I forget to engage a gear and/or set the parking brake. Don't ask how many times it rolled away because I incorrectly assumed that reverse was properly engaged and didn't set the parking brake...

[tcp]

This will happen to any automatic transmission if the lever isn't in park or the park brake isn't set when you turn off the ignition. Certainly not unique to the Sienna (keyless or otherwise) or Toyota.

"BUT NEGLECTED TO PUT THE VEHICLE IN PARK!!!". <--- This indicates the problem. It's a fundamental part of driving an automatic vehicle. How about some self responsibility?

[Not2fat1]

You missed the point completely. Your comment about self responsibility was rude and short sighted.

This is s serious safety hazzard that needs to be corrected. Imagine a harried, distracted mother with a van full of kids who neglects to put into park before hitting the button. She gets out of the van to unload the kids - when the van starts rolling, picks up speed and ends up getting hit on a busy street.

Also, you're wrong about all automatics (keyless or not) having this problem. The keyed automatics certainly don't let you remove the key and automatically go into neutral! I don't know about other keyless vehicles...

[tcp]

Seriously? I can leave my auto in neutral and run around the block with the key while the van rolls away. There are a million greater dangers to a harried distracted mother (or father. Ask me, I've done my time) than this.

[veron]

"BUT NEGLECTED TO PUT THE VEHICLE IN PARK!!!". <--- This indicates the problem. It's a fundamental part of driving an automatic vehicle. How about some self responsibility? [/QUOTE]


Well said.

[Not2fat1]

I never said I was not responsible. In fact - "BUT NEGLECTED TO PUT THE VEHICLE IN PARK!!! were my words. How is that not taking responsibility? My point was/is that hopefully this stops someone else from making the same mistake I did.

I've contacted Toyota. Maybe they can put some warning sounds or something instead of just the msg in the dash that says put the car in park.

[happycamper]

A few months ago, my van was involved in a three vehicle accident at a gas station...and nobody was driving. The owner of a truck (manual trans) stepped out of his vehicle and left it running while he went into the store. His vehicle rolled into mine and another car. He said the parking brake was on, I doubt it. Point is that this can happen with almost any vehicle.

[Not2fat1]

Manual transmission...def understand how that will roll!!! LOL

[homer]

Unbelievable what we can read here sometime.....

[Narboza]

An automobile is a voluntary action device. You can use it correctly, and you can use it incorrectly. Every vehicle manufacturer has hordes of lawyers covering reams of paper with information, notices, instructions, cautions, warnings and other text to warn you of almost every wrong thing you can do with their vehicles. All are likely based on common sense safety or a history of litigation where people sought money for real or perceived damages. My first car had a slim pamphlet of 40-50 pages. Our 2011 Sienna manual is over 700 pages. It makes interesting reading when you need something to do.

I did a quick scan of an electronic version of the 2011 Sienna Owner's Manual concerning the subject of the first post. I found lots of guidance. Here are some of the things we are told to do in that manual. Non-pertinent portions are removed for brevity.

Stopping (page 200)
- With the shift lever in D, depress the brake pedal.
- If necessary, set the parking brake. If the vehicle is to be stopped for an extended period of time, shift the shift lever to P or N.

Parking the vehicle (page 201)
1. With the shift lever in D, depress the brake pedal.
2. Set the parking brake.
3. Shift the shift lever to P. If parking on a hill, block the wheels as needed.
4. Vehicles without a smart key system:
- Turn the engine switch to the “LOCK” position and stop the engine.
Vehicles with a smart key system:
- Press the “ENGINE START STOP” switch to stop the engine.

When the vehicle is stopped (page 207)
- In order to prevent accidents due to the vehicle rolling away, always keep depressing the brake pedal while the engine is running, and apply the parking brake as necessary.
- If the vehicle is stopped on an incline, in order to prevent accidents caused by the vehicle rolling forward or backward, always depress the brake pedal and securely apply the parking brake as needed.

When parking the vehicle (page 210)
Always shift the shift lever to P. Failure to do so may cause the vehicle to move or the vehicle may accelerate suddenly if the accelerator pedal is accidentally depressed.

Stopping the engine (page 215)
1. Stop the vehicle.
2. Shift the shift lever to P.
3. Set the parking brake.
4. Press the “ENGINE START STOP” switch.
5. Release the brake pedal and check that the indicator on the “ENGINE START STOP” switch is off.

When stopping the engine with the shift lever in a position other than P (page 217)
If the engine is stopped with the shift lever in a position other than P, the “ENGINE START STOP” switch will not be turned off but instead be turned to ACCESSORY mode. Perform the following procedure to turn the switch off:
1. Check that the parking brake is set.
2. Shift the shift lever to P.
3. Check that the indicator on the “ENGINE START STOP” switch is illuminated in amber and then press the “ENGINE START STOP” switch once.
4. Check that the indicator on the “ENGINE START STOP” switch is off.

The bottom line is the driver is responsible for safe operation of the vehicle. Where [Not2fat1] sees a major safety issue, I can see a use case where the driver has to be able to turn the engine off at any time and in any driving condition: fire, mechanical failure, loss of engine control, etc. The vehicle cannot read our mind (thank goodness) and know what we mean it to do. That is why our roads are like a game of bumber cars.

I think what got people upset above was a new poster, using ALL CAPS (which means screaming online), and adding BOLD to boot. Oh, and the UNDERLINED ALL CAPS BOLD. I can understand [Not2fat1] being concerned about the event based on the van's usage. I spent 26 years in the Navy and had the honor to work with the Marines a time or two or three. I would likely feel equally concerned about harming my son. I would equally understand how I erred and learn from it to take care in the future.

[fibber2]

True admission of guilt: This past Thursday night I drove my daughter to flute choir practice, and then afterwards we had a few stops to make before everything closed at 9:30 PM. It was cold and rainy, and she preferred to stay in the car where it was warm and dry, so I left the engine running and the heater on, and she locked the doors when I got out and ran into the stores. On the second stop I got back into the car and realized that I had, in my rush, applied the parking brake but left the tranny in drive! Had I turned off the engine and attempted to remove the key, my mistake would have been immediately obvious. But as I intentionally left it running, my error went unnoticed for close to 10 minutes. Fortunately, I applied the parking brake, it was level ground, and the brake is well adjusted. What if it had not been? My daughter doesn't drive, and would probably have no clue what to do if the car took off!

Potentially fatal error, fully my fault, and completely preventable. We are human, we screw up, and I cannot blame the car.

(Oh, by the way, please don't tell my wife!!)

[brian_bp]

... I got back into the car and realized that I had, in my rush, applied the parking brake but left the tranny in drive! Had I turned off the engine and attempted to remove the key, my mistake would have been immediately obvious.

(my emphasis)

I think this is the key point (groan). With a traditional key-operated automatic transmission vehicle, the key can't be removed without placing the transmission in Park, and people usually take the key with them. Although the manual clearly tells the driver to place the vehicle in Park before completely shutting down with the keyless system, the vehicle has no similarly assertive way to say "hey, dummy, you left me out of Park" when someone inevitably errs.

In fibber2's case, if he had not set the parking brake the problem would have been essentially identical to Not2fat1's situation, since the transmission in Drive without the engine running does little to keep the vehicle from rolling downhill. Similarly, if Not2fat1 had set the parking brake, there would be no problem. This is a reason for routinely setting the parking brake, even on flat ground - I do that.

Not2fat1 was expecting that in this situation there would be an alarm of some sort. Given what I have read in other discussions, my guess is that this might easily be ignored, because there are so many alarms, but perhaps it would be good anyway... and perhaps there is one. A more aggressive behaviour that could be programmed would be to automatically shift to Park and/or apply the parking brake (oh, right, it's not an electric parking brake yet...) if the transmitter goes out of range while the vehicle is shut down.


This is one more reason that I dislike the keyless ignition systems (Toyota or otherwise). They save very little hassle in key handling and introduce both more complex operating procedures and significant uncertainty - as well as creating several problematic scenarios - in exchange.

[pjksr02]

For what it's worth, the Prius uses a Smart Key too, and if you turn it off when not in Park, it automatically shifts to Park as it turns off. If you get out of the Prius with it "on" and not in Park, it buzzes incessantly. I'm surprised the Sienna isn't similar.

[brian_bp]

If you get out of the Prius with it "on" and not in Park, it buzzes incessantly. I'm surprised the Sienna isn't similar.

I'm not surprised, if I have understood this correctly. If you leave a (keyless or not) Sienna "on", the engine is running, which is somewhat obvious. If you leave a (keyless or not) Prius (or other hybrid) "on", the engine likely isn't running and the driver could easily fail to realize that the vehicle was not shut off... thus the need for a buzzer.

The problematic scenario which Not2fat1 stumbled into is one in which the electrical system is left not with ignition "on" but in "accessory" mode and neutral - as a deliberate design feature intended for the driver's convenience - which is bad if not intended.