Test Drove Seven 2012 Models - Down to Sienna or Sedona

[Nil]

Over the past week and a half my wife and I have researched(including reading up on this site about Siennas) and then test drove 7 different new 2012 models to decide on the Minivan we wish to purchase. Here is a brief run down of from our notes from our test drives along with our rankings. Hopefully at least a few things here might be useful to anybody else sizing up a new minivan purchase.

Disqualified:
Honda Odyssey EX: Everything was very nice and I believe 2nd and 3rd row seats were the most comfortable, except I could not stand to sit in the front passenger seat. At 6'1" with the seat all the way back my knees were jammed up tight against the enormous glove compartment, even if I had wanted to try and stretch my legs underneath it the leg compartment was to shallow to permit that. My legs were tortured for just the 15 minutes my wife was driving and the thought of taking a long trip when myself or any other average to above average height adult needed to sit in the front passenger seat completely disqualified the Odyssey.

Disqualified:
Mazda Mazda5 Touring: Not much power, the 3rd row was next to unusable except by small children. It looked great in reviews and the specs looked nice, but after climbing in and driving it we immediately found it much too small for us.

5th place:
Nissan Quest LE: Up front this was the nicest of the vehicles we drove (possibly because the only one in stock was a $40k+ model). However the 2nd and 3rd row were a bit disappointing given the cost, and corning was a big probably. When making a right turn most of the other minivans could extremely tightly. We had to take every right turn wide in the Quest.

4th place:
Dodge Grand Caravan SE: Power was good, interior wasn't as nice as others. The biggest disadvantage was the 2nd and 3rd row seats. The Stow and Go seats might be the best at folding flat into the floor, but they were the worst seats in
terms of comfort. One thing I did like was the huge driver & passenger side windows. Lots of visibility that helps solve the side visibility issue that every van we tested had due to the thick columns just behind the driver.

3rd place:
Ford Flex Limited: The was the minivan alternative we tested. Getting in and out of the 3rd row was a bit annoying compared to the vans, I thought the turning and acceleration were fairly good, but my wife was disappointed by the engine when climbing steep hills. I did not care for the control layout (everything glows blue), but my wife liked the dash setup. The higher SUV sitting position was very nice and helped with visibility. I would wholeheartedly recommend it to anybody who needs 7 seats but for some reason refuses to consider a real minivan.

1st & 2nd place:
Kia Sodona EX with Luxury Package & Toyota Sienna FWD V6 LE

So we are currently split between the Sodona & the Sienna. I am posting this because I would love to hear a few opinions on the choice between these two. We are primarily weighing the tons of extra options we could get on the Kia for less money and the better warranty of the Kia against the historic reliability & reputation advantages of the Sienna. I believe with halfway decent negotiation I can get a Toyota Sienna FWD V6 LE that is sticker priced $30,500 for just under 28k, I believe with the same level of negotiation and added incentives(which are much richer than Toyota incentives) I can get a Kia Sedona EX with Luxury Package that is sticker priced at $32,500 for just under 26k. Running TrueCar/Amex Zag numbers these numbers appear to be reasonable targets. I should also add that I plan purchasing an aftermarket Nav/Stereo and aftermarket floor mats regardless of which choice I make. My wife and I care far more about function over form so cosmetic differences do not mean too much, we are also likely to keep whichever vehicle we choose at least 10+ years. We liked both vehicles just as much on our test drives and given the price & feature difference would select the Kia except for those nagging reliability surveys where the Toyota usually rates significantly better. So here is our current list of advantages for each vehicle.

Advantage to 2012 Kia Sedona EX with Luxury Package:
$2,000 cheaper
Extra 2 years of full warranty
Extra 5 years of power-train warranty
Leather Seats,
Heated Seats,
Adjustable Pedals,
Memory drivers seats, mirrors, & pedals
Power Passenger Seat,
Sunroof
Slightly roomer for front leg room
Stereo & Speakers seem a touch better (though likely to replace with aftermarket)

Advantage to Toyota Sienna FWD V6 LE:
Better reliability per Consumer Report, JD Power and various other sources
Better resale value (possibly skewed by using MSRP instead of actual purchase prices? When I adjust for that it just seems like I'm paying $2,000 extra for a van that might be worth $2,000 extra when I sell it)
3rd row seats are a bit more comfortable & roomy
8th seat that while small and uncomfortable could be used in a pinch
Maybe a little better gas mileage? (Same EPA MPG, but many reviews show the Sienna to be 1-2 MPG better)
Much more popular and common choice. Which means active communities like this one, more aftermarket options, and possibly more cheaper 3rd party parts available and maybe more knowledgeable mechanics.

Other differences:
I like the Toyota center console better, my wife likes that the Kia console folds away so she could easily move to the back
Kia has a bit more passenger space, Toyota has a bit more cargo space. Overall space is basically identical.

So what am I missing from my Sienna/Sedona comparison? How much attention should I pay to all those reliability surveys and should I let the question of Toyota reliability (or Kia lack of reliability) trump all the extra features and longer warranty periods? After all that extra $2,000 could certainly pay for a couple extra repairs or a pretty darn good extended warranty; or is the reliability difference likely to overwhelm that and possibly cause all those fancy options to quickly break. For those that may have test drove or even owned both vehicles why did you pick the Sienna?

[mic111]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I've also been test driving for the last week. I'm trying to decide between the Town and Country and the Sienna for much the same reason's your split between the Sedona and Sienna. The Town and Country reliability nags at us but we love all the additional features (I love toys) for the money.

I eliminated the Sedona because it did not have the telescoping steering wheel which meant I could not get into a comfortable driving position. In addition we felt it was pretty noisy but probably insulation could be added. I think if you fit the driver's position comfortably it is probably a solid choice.

Odyssey was eliminated because of several threads on the Odyssey forum regarding bad transmissions in the 2011 and 2012. For me it also had too rough of a ride and was very expensive for the offered features.

I think were likely to go with the Sienna because of the good engine/transmission which seems to still be a question mark with the Town and Country.

If I go with the Sienna I'm still trying to decide between an LE AWD (which we then add after market items to get where we want) and the XLE AWD with NAV (for the push button start).

I like the lighter interior so may have to add after market leather and heated seats if the light colored fabric on the LE starts to look bad. I would love to add real wood accents to the interior. On web sites it appears that adding wood to the black plastic of the LE looks better than the plastic wood on the XLE. I would add Nav and tie in the back up camera so we could have a better screen for the back up camera. Would look into getting push button start. If we could add it then the LE vs XLE would be a no brainer. Would also love to add the blind spot monitoring. Not sure if this is available after market.

Basically the Town and Country comes closest to the product we want, if only it had a good transmission. The Sienna has AWD, a better seat for my back, a better driver position for me (strangely the T&C's brake is alot closer to the driver than the accelerator which I don't find comfortable) and a known good transmission/engine. We found that it shifted the smoothest when we drove it. But the T&C does have blind spot monitoring, heated steering wheel, push button start, stow and go seating (which would be great for us with our dogs) and a host of other gadgets which I love.

In the end I think we have to have the reliable engine/transmission. I have a 13 yr old Lexus that I have owned since new. I have only taken it in for one repair, that wasn't maintenance, which was a transmission rebuild at about 116,000 miles. It was expensive at $2500 but I'm still satisfied because in 13 years only spending the two days in the shop is still very good. Our biggest reluctance in getting a minivan is a fear of it being in the shop all the time. We are keeping the Lexus and not trading it in, just in case.

Would love to hear any further thoughts you have as you go through the evaluation process. Next week I'm going to try and price out the after market add-ons so I can better compare the options.

I did go down to the local Enterprise rental car sales lot where they had a 2011 Sienna for sale. I was surprised to see that the cheap plastic interior seemed to hold up pretty well to rental use. It had 14K miles on it. The price they had on the AWD was practically the same as new. However the price on the LE FWD at another local lot was in the low 20s so I would consider that route if I wanted FWD. Some people say they wouldn't buy a rental car but my mom did and she has been very happy. I also read good reviews of going that route so if I saved big $s I would do it.

Edit: Forgot to mention that the Sienna seemed to have excessive roll in the curve getting off the expressway. I have to check that out again as it felt very unstable.

[brian_bp]

I like the Toyota center console better, my wife likes that the Kia console folds away so she could easily move to the back

Unless it has changed in the current generation (and it may have) the basic Sienna console is a fold-away design, and could perhaps be retrofit to a higher trim level vehicle. The larger non-folding console of the higher trim levels is easily removable (pull a latch handle), and in at least the 2004 it can latch into the seat anchors of the second row when the right-side second-row seat is placed in the outboard position. All of this may now be outdated with the 2011+ changes.

[montanaman]

We haven't had much winter until now, but today as I watched most of the cars slipping and sliding around town, and my AWD Sienna getting around fine, I was very glad that I had the Sienna -

[mic111]

Do you have the factory tires on? My husband was concerned the tread pattern wouldn't do well in snow and ice.

[montanaman]

The run-flats are only an average tire on snow and ice - not outstanding. The AWD is what lets it get around.

I spent the $1400 on a set of wheels, and dedicated snow tires, Bridgestone Blizzak DM-V1, and with those tires the van will practically plow snow, and ice doesn't slow it down at all. With AWD and Blizzaks, you won't even realize it's slick until you see the other vehicles struggling.

The local shops were outrageous on wheels, so I bought the wheels/tires from the Tire Rack - mounted, balanced, and shipped to my door for about what they wanted here for just the wheels here.

That being said - not having AWD was a deal-breaker for all the other vans I looked at -

[mic111]

Thanks! We have a very steep driveway where AWD would be important in the winter. Not sure if we could make it on the stock tires or would need snow tires. My SUV with AWD makes it just fine with a highly rated set of all season Michelins. However my husband's RWD car cannot always make it up with snow tires.

Were still waffling on buying the minivan due to my being cheap and not wanting to spend money. :-)

[montanaman]

My LE 7 AWD was $31,800

[jonhuynh]

got new 2012 sienna xle fwd last month ( STANDARD MODEL ) at 32500 OTD in FL

That good deal?

[fibber2]

We went thru a similar decision making process last year shopping for 2011 models in an effort to replace our aging Honda Odyssey. The Ody was our 3^rd minivan, so we pretty much knew what we were looking for in terms of a balance between features / ride / handling / room / comfort, etc.

Agree with most of the comments on your list, as we looked at all of them except the Flex. For us the big deal breakers were:
Mazda was way too small and underpowered
Ody it was the outward visibility from the drivers seat for my wife
Dodge stow & go seats are the worst – the kids would have mutinied if we’d bought it
Quest has a high load floor & reduced interior cargo capacity

That left us with exactly your dilemma – at our price point either the Sienna LE or the Sedona EX. After driving them back to back one afternoon, we came to the conclusion that the Sedona was the more ‘truck-like’ in terms of handling and NVH. It just lacked a level of refinement even compared to our 2002 Ody, and substantially below the Sienna. Don’t get me wrong as I think for the price & features it’s a great product. I’ve rented / borrowed several Hyundai Sonata sedans over the years, and think the Korean products rock for the money, but we decided that the Toyota in this case had the edge.

So, what happened? We went back and drove 3 more Sienna’s with different levels of equipment (LE & XLE), but my wife just wasn’t happy. Plus, being the practical one, she reminded me of the state of financial affairs. She described to the sales guy the things that bothered her about the interior (for instance, she couldn’t muscle the sliding second row seats). The guy took us around back and showed us a CPO generation 2 Sienna, and Beth loved it. In the end we bought a CPO 2008 from a dealer around 80 miles away. Not what we had planned to do (after a string of 9 new cars over 25 yrs), but she’s happy and I can live with it.

On the issue of snow & ice, we too have a long & inclined driveway. Years ago I went back to running dedicated snows on both the Outback and the Ody. Packages from TireRack. Our old cars were helpless at the new house on bad winter days. AWD is great, but we found that FWD with traction & stability control and proper tires is good enough for most conditions.

[skinny2]

I think given the much better warranty of the Dodge and Kia...if those are the ones you want otherwise that would be the way to go. I have owned a lot of Toyotas (and many other brands) and can only give this piece of advice: I'd rather have a (predicted) less reliable vehicle that's exactly what I want vs a (predicted) ultra-reliable vehicle that's not exactly what I want. The hedge here is...there's always the chance of the reliable one having problems and the problematic one being superb. Buying something that's not exactly what you wanted and then also having problems with it....that's a real double whammy. Toyota is not what they used to be...and neither is Kia or Dodge. The statistical differences between them is not significant in the scheme of things.

The Sienna happened to be a perfect fit for what my wife wanted. That's why we bought it.

[pjksr02]

So, what happened? We went back and drove 3 more Sienna’s with different levels of equipment (LE & XLE), but my wife just wasn’t happy. Plus, being the practical one, she reminded me of the state of financial affairs. She described to the sales guy the things that bothered her about the interior (for instance, she couldn’t muscle the sliding second row seats). The guy took us around back and showed us a CPO generation 2 Sienna, and Beth loved it. In the end we bought a CPO 2008 from a dealer around 80 miles away. Not what we had planned to do (after a string of 9 new cars over 25 yrs), but she’s happy and I can live with it.

Just what I was thinking: maybe the prior generation of Sienna would appeal more, and be more affordable as used, yet just as reliable.

Personally, I'm surprised a Kia is in the running. If you had to buy a 5-year-old van, which would you choose?

But the previous poster is right: you could live with a van that has something you don't like, but could you live with your wife who had a van that has something she doesn't like?

[fibber2]

If the wife ain't happy, life can be hell!!

As you can see from my tag line, I've already 'upgraded' the van in a number of areas. Beth's remaining complaints are: Rear visibility (backup camera), hands-free phone (bluetooth integration), and better ipod integration with steering wheel controls. All of these can be addressed by replacing the basic radio head with something like the mid/upper line Kenwood or Sony. A day or so's work and another $1,200 should do the trick!

[grandmama]

so what did you get? Toyota? or Kia? update?

[Indydriver]

Informative review. I'm surprised the Mazda 5 was chosen to compare vs minivans. My wife has driven two Chrysler minivans over the last 24 years and we are looking for a replacement. I loved the Mazda CX-9 and pushed very hard to get her into that but, she just couldn't be happy giving up her minivan. Amazing.

I ruled out the Honda because of the VCM V6. If you're interested why, google "Odyssey oil consumption" and read about all the problems. Honda has really slipped and is no longer the engine-centric, performance company it once was.

Sorry but I just can't bring myself to any level of interest in the Koreans. I know they've gotten better but...no way.

We did test drive the new Chrysler van. I agree with the comments on the interior not being up to snuff. I thought the transmission hunted from gear to gear too easily on the highway. It definitely has a firmer ride than Toyota which I like--the one XLE AWD we've driven seemed awfully soft in ride and especially in brake pedal force.

But wifey likes the Toy and I can go along with it. We're going to go FWD for reasons detailed in another thread and invest the savings in a second set of wheels and Blizzaks as a previous poster has. If you've never done this, you will be amazed at the difference. FYI, if the thought of buying a second set of wheels puts you off, you can just buy Blizzaks at your local Firestone store and they should give you at least two years of free swaps. I negotiated lifetime swaps with mine and run them on two of my four vehicles without extra wheels.