2006 with 209k .Engine flush , How and Why?

1047 Views 17 Replies 9 Participants Last post by BillG, 4 mo ago

paul r

Discussion Starter · 5 mo ago

I recently did an oil change and if you are like me , you would wipe clean the bung area of the oil pan , start the engine and check for leaks at the filter and the oil bung. I did not get to the point of starting the engine. Why? It seemed to me that the oil bung was not seated as I normally see. Sure enough the old washer was still there. Geez. So I drained the oil and buttoned up things again. BUT what was interesting was how the new oil looked once it was drained. It looked dirty not like the clear light honey color of new oil. So I researched engine flush , the pro and cons and the various ways of doing so and the one that I like the most is actually doing an oil change as usual then drive for a bit then renew the oil and filter and take it from there. Seems like a waste and I question whether or not an engine flush is even necessary if you change the oil regularly. Thoughts?

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ericreyn

· #2 · 5 mo ago

Some might put this into the same category as a trans flush, best to take what gravity will give you and leave the rest alone. I do run some sea foam for 200 miles before oil change and dump the other half into the fuel tank but who knows if there is any benefit. The only reason I did this was because of a vvt code that would pop up on a rare occasion. Dirty oil or too long of a duration between changes seemed to one possible cause. I was going for 10,000 between and have since settled on 8,000.

I had this other car with a screw on filter and I was 100 % Sure I had the face cleaned off good but the rubber seal was still on it so it had two of these now. It must have pumped 3 quarts of oil onto the floor in like 30 seconds.

sixto

· #3 · 5 mo ago

What oil did you drain then fill? I ask because we had a Caravan with sludge visible through the oil filler hole. I imagine the PO ran dino oil. A few changes with Mobil1 back when it was more synthetic than it is now cleared most of the sludge.

Did it look dirty on the dipstick as well on only while pouring and in the pan? Do you have an oil cooler that doesn’t drain through the pan?

Sixto
‘04 LE FWD 207K miles

ericreyn

· #4 · 5 mo ago

Here is something to consider,,,

Reactions: 1

supra129

· #5 · 5 mo ago

No to an engine flush per ericreyn's link. I would run the oil for 500 miles then change it. Also shorten the oil change interval. Mine is 5k or 6 months. Oil is cheap, engines aren't!

Reactions: 2

paul r

Discussion Starter · #6 · 5 mo ago

sixto said:
Did it look dirty on the dipstick

No , The oil looked clean on the dipstick.

supra129 said:
No to an engine flush per ericreyn's link. I would run the oil for 500 miles then change it. Also shorten the oil change interval. Mine is 5k or 6 months. Oil is cheap, engines aren't!

This is what I would do as you suggest. And Yes I'm a 5k 6 month believer.
Year before last I pulled out the vvti screens and they were clean! This after over 175k miles. I am now at 209k miles. That was encouraging!!

Reactions: 1

slothman

· #7 · 5 mo ago

quite often an "engine flush" additive will cause other problems like leaks from the main sean, and leaks from the pan and other areas. USUALLY the engine flush products are ONLY used if you HEAR audible noises IE hydraulic lifters or other noises from the top end of the motor.

That being said, the 2 BEST options you have for motor "cleaning" would be marvel mystery oil, OR rislone engine treatment. You can research them but both are highly recommend and prosper amazing results.

Again, these products are usually used if your motor is making lighter tapping noises. If it's a deeper knocking or tappin. then your motor has serious issues,.

Reactions: 1

BillG

· #8 · 5 mo ago

I wouldn't be too concerned. The oil pan holds the worst of the worst oil in the bottom half inch or so. If you really wanted to "flush" it out, you could always put the plug in, pour in half a quart, then pull the plug again and drain that out. That said, if you aren't getting lifter noise at cold start (hard to do in FL, I imagine), I probably wouldn't put any money into an engine flush. Back in the day, you would get a beater that leaked a little oil out of the rear main. You'd add a quart per week. Every 3 months, you spin off the old filter and spin on a new one. No oil change was required because it was on a continuous change interval.

Reactions: 3

thanwu

· #9 · 5 mo ago

I am always concerned with engine or transmission flush, especially with additives.

Broncofan

· #10 · 5 mo ago

Probably an easier, lest costly way:
When you change your own oll, after removing oil drain plug and filter, wait a couple hours for it to fully drain. Then, before you put back the drain plug, pour into your oil intake maybe a half or so quart of new oil. (Lots of cars take 4.5 quarts or 5.5 quarts). Wait for that to drip thorough then put you plug and oil filter on.
If you have someone helping you, and you are down below, you can see the new oil "push out" the dirty old oil which was not removed. Its cheaper and faster. You can skip the waiting, too, but its better to wait until your oil all drains down. The idea is you have more nearly 100 percent new oil and only a very small portion of used oil inside your engine.

sixto

· #11 · 5 mo ago

Sounds like it’s a matter of how much you think about it

Yes, a key point of changing oil is getting dirt and nastiness out of the engine so the more you remove the better. I wonder how much internal surface area that half quart of oil flows over on its way to the drain. I imagine not much. Maybe the compromi$e to avoid chemicals is a 200 mile flu$h with fre$h oil

Or maintain a more reasonable drain interval than some oil manufacturer’s [crazy to me] 15k mile recommendation. I lose sleep if oil has been in the engine more than 5k miles. Thankfully I can afford to appease myself. There are people who lose sleep after 3K miles.

This is much better than the indirect injection Diesel days when fresh oil looked like what you just drained after a drive around the block.

Sixto
‘04 LE FWD 207K miles

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slothman

· #12 · 5 mo ago

Broncofan said:
Probably an easier, lest costly way:
When you change your own oll, after removing oil drain plug and filter, wait a couple hours for it to fully drain. Then, before you put back the drain plug, pour into your oil intake maybe a half or so quart of new oil. (Lots of cars take 4.5 quarts or 5.5 quarts). Wait for that to drip thorough then put you plug and oil filter on.
If you have someone helping you, and you are down below, you can see the new oil "push out" the dirty old oil which was not removed. Its cheaper and faster. You can skip the waiting, too, but its better to wait until your oil all drains down. The idea is you have more nearly 100 percent new oil and only a very small portion of used oil inside your engine.

Doing this will not help with engine "sludge". The sludge sticks to the hydraulic lifters and oil passages caused by previous owners waiting to long for oil changes.

IMO there are 2 effective and safe ways to clean an engine if you notice/suspect the sludge.

The first is marvel mystery oil. Super effective, and proven to work. The other is an old school method, 1 quart of ATF with the remainder oil.

Both are proven ways to clear sludge and fix upper end noises or hydraulic lifters.

Reactions: 1

slothman

· #13 · 5 mo ago

thanwu said:
I am always concerned with engine or transmission flush, especially with additives.

with a transmission flush that means they hook up a pressure machine, and pump the fluid around. Of course, you never want to do that.

Most of the "engine flushes" are just a quart or two. Then you run the engine for 5 minutes. Drain everything, and then do a brand new oil change. Again, these methods sometimes cause leaks at the rear main seal. Not a good idea. You are better off using marvel mystery oil, or 1 quart ATF.

MMO has been around for AGES, and it works wonders at cleaning the engine.

Broncofan

· #14 · 5 mo ago

The quick easy flush I described, above, wont "clear sludge", per se, but a constant wash in the cleanest oil possible, will. This is what this intends to accomplish by this simple method to make sure as much as possible of the "dirty" oil is flushed at oil change. When you pour in clean oil, it becomes slightly diluted with dirty oil, left in your engine at oil change, at your new oil change. Using the method I described, means there will be less dirty oil to dilute the clean oil. Its kinda like trying to wipe something clean with a very dirty soiled oily wrag..it does not work that well, but instead spreads dirt all over the surfaces you intend to clean. Instead, wipe it off with as clean a wrag as possible.
In the same way, the method, above, cleans at least SOME of the dirty oil left in your engine at oil change. Disassembling the engine, of course, would allow a full sludge removal.

A family member, with extensive motor cycle racing experience, recommends Amsoil. I did check the Amsoil website, where the sludge removal is documented, by actual engines broken down after use, along with otther testing procedures.

I found no such oil testing results at Marvel Mystery Oil. While test results can be manipulated, these third party oil tests did demonstrate that my cousin's opinion on the value of Amsoil was spot on.

Instead of relying upon anecdotal evidence "My uncle said this brand of oil was best, so it has to be the best", I prefer documented comparison testing. While car companies dont recommend oil additives, such as Marvel Mystery oil, Amsoil products are good enough so that you warranty is still in force after using Amsoil at oil change instead of other brands. Indeed, the lubrication engineers which work for the car companies, review the tests. As far as I know, none of the major car companies recommend oil additives, but do provide lubricant quality specificiations, supported by testing.

For my vehicles, I will do what the engineers recommend, as opposed to ancedotal evidence. For that reason, I dont use oil additives.

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trunkmonkey108

· #15 · 4 mo ago

If you want to get most of the remaining oil at the bottom of the pan out, poke a hole in a lid that will fit over your oil filler hole and blow some compressed air into it. If you're stretchy enough to peer under the car while doing this you'll see the last of the oil puddles blowing out the drain hole and maybe you'll decide to skip a flush or waste new oil on an early change. It can be a bit messy ( big piece of cardboard under the drain pan is good) and don't go overboard on the pressure but it's very satisfying to get out the oil that's trapped inside the pan out.

slothman

· #16 · 4 mo ago

Broncofan said:
The quick easy flush I described, above, wont "clear sludge", per se, but a constant wash in the cleanest oil possible, will. This is what this intends to accomplish by this simple method to make sure as much as possible of the "dirty" oil is flushed at oil change. When you pour in clean oil, it becomes slightly diluted with dirty oil, left in your engine at oil change, at your new oil change. Using the method I described, means there will be less dirty oil to dilute the clean oil. Its kinda like trying to wipe something clean with a very dirty soiled oily wrag..it does not work that well, but instead spreads dirt all over the surfaces you intend to clean. Instead, wipe it off with as clean a wrag as possible.
In the same way, the method, above, cleans at least SOME of the dirty oil left in your engine at oil change. Disassembling the engine, of course, would allow a full sludge removal.

A family member, with extensive motor cycle racing experience, recommends Amsoil. I did check the Amsoil website, where the sludge removal is documented, by actual engines broken down after use, along with otther testing procedures.

I found no such oil testing results at Marvel Mystery Oil. While test results can be manipulated, these third party oil tests did demonstrate that my cousin's opinion on the value of Amsoil was spot on.

Instead of relying upon anecdotal evidence "My uncle said this brand of oil was best, so it has to be the best", I prefer documented comparison testing. While car companies dont recommend oil additives, such as Marvel Mystery oil, Amsoil products are good enough so that you warranty is still in force after using Amsoil at oil change instead of other brands. Indeed, the lubrication engineers which work for the car companies, review the tests. As far as I know, none of the major car companies recommend oil additives, but do provide lubricant quality specificiations, supported by testing.

For my vehicles, I will do what the engineers recommend, as opposed to ancedotal evidence. For that reason, I dont use oil additives.

Amsoil is one of the best. Totally agree on that. I have been using that oil for years. However, just by using amsoil, you aren't going to cure any engine noises. The detergents in the oil are just very slow acting.

Marvel is used when the problems arise. IE: hydraulic lifter noises or upper cylinder noises. Dirty valves, sticky piston rings, low compression issues, etc. Of course car companies don't want Marvel involved. That want the car in the dealership, being "fixed" for thousands of dollars lolol.

I know MMO isn't a "snake oil" because I have seen it cure problems with my own eyes and ears. And thousands of people online also have proof. I am not saying to use MMO every single oil change. The Marvel should only be used as a last ditch effort before pulling a motor to fix the problem. For $6, it sure as hell worth a shot. And it works many many times.

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Broncofan

· #17 · 4 mo ago

Trunkmonkey: Great idea! I wish I would have thought of using air pressure with a can..its a better idea than mine, as it would not waste clean oil.
What I tried to do (to prevent waste of clean oil) is to "recycle" the oil..its not real dirty like dirty oil, but not completely clean, either, as it has been mixed up with old dirty oil. But it works in an oil can, which I use for lubricating hinges, or anything that needs a few drops of oil. Sure, WD40 spray has some advantages to "the old fashioned oil can" you rarely see mechanics use any more, but there are advantages, too, to the old fashioned oil can, we used often on the farm. Heck, nowadays, mechanics often dont even know what a grease gun is. My son bought a new Kabota tractor, however, and it has many grease zerks, which need greased frequently..or else. Its rather unclear to me why a tractor would need grease zerks, while virtually all new cars have no grease zerks. They are all "sealed". So, why would a tractor have grease zerks and a car not? We also dont "pack" wheel bearings anymore..which we always used to do. My father told the story of his 32 Ford. He said he ran it to fast on low oil, and it started knocking. So, he took the oil pan off, and took a file and "filed down" the end caps of the bearings (making it close slightly smaller), put the used oil back in, and drove off...no more knocking.
There is some truth to Henry Fords statement that "the 32 Ford" is perfect, no research is needed, you cant improve it. While it has been massively improved in many ways, I actually tried "filing down the end cap bearings" on my 55 chevy in line 6 cylinder that was knocking after I inserted new bearings. I had taken sandpaper and sanded off the grooves on the crankshaft, somewhat, and put it back together. The engine started and maybe ran a mile before, when it threw a rod, you knew it was done. I knew then the old school "filing the bearing caps" to stop your car from knocking was over.

Mostly, they dont seem to rebuild (remanufacture) most engines anymore. Yea, you can still rebuild an old Chevy 327, or even a six cylinder. But, you probably wont get a good result rebuilding your 4 cylinder 2005 Nissan or Toyota. Modern engines are manufactured by massive machines with very close tolerances that is exceptionally difficult to duplicate in many/most machine shops. Engines have become disposable, sadly, and are not designed to be rebuilt.

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BillG

· #18 · 4 mo ago

Broncofan said:
Trunkmonkey: Great idea! I wish I would have thought of using air pressure with a can..its a better idea than mine, as it would not waste clean oil.
What I tried to do (to prevent waste of clean oil) is to "recycle" the oil..its not real dirty like dirty oil, but not completely clean, either, as it has been mixed up with old dirty oil. But it works in an oil can, which I use for lubricating hinges, or anything that needs a few drops of oil. Sure, WD40 spray has some advantages to "the old fashioned oil can" you rarely see mechanics use any more, but there are advantages, too, to the old fashioned oil can, we used often on the farm. Heck, nowadays, mechanics often dont even know what a grease gun is. My son bought a new Kabota tractor, however, and it has many grease zerks, which need greased frequently..or else. Its rather unclear to me why a tractor would need grease zerks, while virtually all new cars have no grease zerks. They are all "sealed". So, why would a tractor have grease zerks and a car not? We also dont "pack" wheel bearings anymore..which we always used to do. My father told the story of his 32 Ford. He said he ran it to fast on low oil, and it started knocking. So, he took the oil pan off, and took a file and "filed down" the end caps of the bearings (making it close slightly smaller), put the used oil back in, and drove off...no more knocking.
There is some truth to Henry Fords statement that "the 32 Ford" is perfect, no research is needed, you cant improve it. While it has been massively improved in many ways, I actually tried "filing down the end cap bearings" on my 55 chevy in line 6 cylinder that was knocking after I inserted new bearings. I had taken sandpaper and sanded off the grooves on the crankshaft, somewhat, and put it back together. The engine started and maybe ran a mile before, when it threw a rod, you knew it was done. I knew then the old school "filing the bearing caps" to stop your car from knocking was over.

Mostly, they dont seem to rebuild (remanufacture) most engines anymore. Yea, you can still rebuild an old Chevy 327, or even a six cylinder. But, you probably wont get a good result rebuilding your 4 cylinder 2005 Nissan or Toyota. Modern engines are manufactured by massive machines with very close tolerances that is exceptionally difficult to duplicate in many/most machine shops. Engines have become disposable, sadly, and are not designed to be rebuilt.

Tractors have grease fittings because "sealed" is not really SEALED. In the dirty conditions of typical tractor use, dust/dirt/moisture get where they shouldn't and build up in ways that are detrimental. Fresh grease pushes out the contaminants and keeps joints packed and thick. Likewise, wheel bearings which spend 400k miles on flat highways are fundamentally different from wheel bearings that are dragged through mud and water daily. Back in the day, we had a boat trailer from the 60s which hadn't moved since the 70s being cleaned up for use in the early 90s. My dad pulled the wheels, popped out the bearings, and we cleaned them with solvent, then rolled them around in a light oil and then rolled them around in thick grease then finally jammed as much marine axle grease as we could in them. They went from seized to suitable for the road in about 30 minutes.

As for rebuilding, it's not that it's not worthwhile. It's a function of price vs. results. Back when I had a Ford Ranger, there was a guy who had a 2.3L (originally)/135 hp I-4 engine that he pulled and rebuilt into a high horsepower, naturally aspirated beast just to prove it could be done. I've heard of people throwing a supercharger on a 1MZ in a Sienna before too. For the cost, though, you could sink $10-20k into pulling, rebuilding and reinstalling your Sienna engine OR you can spend $6k dropping in a lower-mileage warrantied engine from LKQ or even a junkyard engine from any 3MZ (or 2GR, as appropriate) vehicle. If you happen to live near old industrial areas or car racing localities, and still have machine shops near you and can be without a vehicle for a while, taking a block, getting it bored and decked and getting the heads surfaced, ported and polished, and building the engine for higher performance, if you're doing all the internal mechanical work yourself could be a worthwhile endeavor. However, if you just want a van to drive you point A to point B, you just pull the old, drop in the less-old and go about your business. OR you trade in the van on a push-pull-tow deal and get $3k for a junkyard candidate.

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