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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just saw the 2022 Kia Carnival reveal. Boy, what a feature-rich SUV...sorry minivan. Apart from the hideous sliding door groove (which they'd refused to remove from the outgoing model), there is little to hate: 1s/2nd row seat heaters/coolers, 2nd row VIP lounge, blind view monitors, dual 12.3 inches fully digital Instrument Cluster/Infortianment system, passenger view (same as those in Odyssey and Pacifica), Safe exit assist, quiet mode and more Safety features than any in its class.

Sure, the Carnival lacks the eAWD and hybridisation of the Sienna, but the price quotient, in my view, is very tempting indeed. In Canada, the Sienna Limited (which is the top dog here) is going for $58,200 CAD, whereas the top trim for the 2022 Kia Carnival SX is $48,300 (which outclasses the Sienna, feature-for-feature, in my view) almost $10,000, plus don't forget the much higher oomph (290 horses and standard 5 yr warranty for the Carnival versus 245 horses and 3 year warranty for the Sienna). Suddently, I am not so sure the Sienna is at the top of my shopping list anymore.

What do you guys think?


 
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I posted these 2 videos in the original 2021 Sienna thread and I think they're worth posting here.


I'm not even considering the new Sienna anymore. I really like the new Carnival especially the interior. My only complaint is that they didn't hide the sliding door track on the bottom od the rear window like the other minivans.

Back in Dec 2016 I compared the 2017 Kia Sorento to the Highlander and I ended up with the Sorento and I had no regrets. To get the same options in the Highlander as I got in the Sorento SX trim would have required going up to a Highlander Limited or Limited Platinum trim which would have been much more expensive so I have a feeling the Carnival is going to offer a much better value than the Sienna. Now if gas goes back to $4/gallon then my opinion might change.

Another thing to keep in mind for those who keep their cars for a long time, Kias have a 10 year 100k mile powertrain warranty.

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Love the way it looks and the interior design but no hybrid and no eAWD/AWD is a deal breaker. Can’t stand the glossy piano black. Had it on 2 cars and it’s a PITA to keep clean

Our 2012 Prius was a gateway drug to the benefits of a hybrid, and no one makes them better than Toyota
 

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I love it, but personally the no hybrid/plug in and AWD option is the deal killer for me. We have grown accustomed to the nearly 40mpg in our Rav4. It helps offset the 16mpg in my 4runner haha. Maybe if i crunch the numbers at the price differences i could justify the loss in MPG over a 10 year period. But I still would love a plug in, as most of our trips are under 30 miles.

1-2 second diff in 0-60 doesn't matter much to me in a minivan.
 

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Some quick calculations for 100,000 miles of driving:
2021 Sienna FWD 100,000 miles / 36mpg = 2777 gallons
2022 Carnival FWD 100,000 mile / 22mpg = 4420 gallons

4420 - 2777 gallons = 1768 gallons x $2.645 (current national average gas price) = $4676
So from an MPG standpoint, it would be beneficial on the lower trims to go Sienna. However if you compare the SX Prestige to the Platinum FWD, $46,100 to $49,900 msrp, it's quite close.
 

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Pros:
• Carnival is cheaper than comparably equipped Sienna
• ultrasonic motion sensors used for child/pet detection, not just door opening sequencing
• 8th seat a better implementation of what the 2nd gen Sienna had, you don't have to physically lift it up to get it into the frontmost position as it slides on long rails
• SX dual screen RES has a DVD player and can wirelessly mirror Apple/Android devices
• SX Prestige gets dual sunroofs, in-cabin night-vision camera, digital dash, all unavailable on Sienna
• there don't appear to be color/option restrictions other than the base LX coming in just 4 colors
• compact spare tire is standard

Cons:
• hybrid Sienna has lower fuel consumption/carbon emissions
• no AWD
• no 2nd row side airbags
• roof rails standard on SX, not available on LX and EX although crossbars are optional
• SX Prestige lounge seats aren't intended to be removed = screwdriver time
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
For me AWD is not a deal breaker as I use Winter/Snow tires in all my cars they have served me well (I live in snow country so I know what I am talking about). The hybrid system, while attractive from green environment perspective, in the end is no big deal for me as I average 9000-10,000Km per year, and I am planning to sell in about 5-7 years, so the math for fuel savings is more than offset by the price diferentials (about $11,000 taxes in). If I add extra 2 -year Warranty for the Sienna to equalize the standard waranty period, this pushes the price diferential to over $13,500 CAD. Even after fuel savings of about $2000-3000 over a 5-7 year period (at $1 per liter, difference of 4 liters/100KM, for average 10000Km per year), and faster depreciation for the Carnival, when I sell the Carnival, there is still thousands of dollars in my pocket. New Kia vehicles are on par with Toyotas (and in some cases better) in recent Reliability Surveys (CR and JD Power), so I should expect comparable maintenance costs on both sides. I suspect everyone's situation and math is different.

Like I said, I am crunching the numbers for my specific situation and I am finding it hard to justify the $13,000 cost difference at the top trims for both vehicles.
 
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I noticed Kia stopped calling it a grand utility vehicle and now it’s a multipurpose vehicle. I hope that’s not an indicator that it won’t get AWD down the road.

-Mike
 

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A big plus of the high trim Carnival is that the leg rests on the 2nd row lounge seats are power operated. The leg rests in our 2014 Sienna are very difficult to deploy and stow - actually impossible for the elderly passengers we carry who could benefit from having their legs slightly elevated.

I hope the Carnival gets decent headlights. As I reported previously, the headlights on the Sedona were rated "Poor" by the IIHS. I had to exchange a rental Sedona for something else in 2019 due to not being able to see at night.
 

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After doing a trim comparison on the Kia US site, I have some comments and questions. Some of these things annoy me because I want the SX trim.
  • Since the dual sunroof is only available in the SX Prestige trim, I'm assuming that all others get a single sunroof. The dual sunroof should have been included on the SX trim. My 2017 Sorento SX had a panoramic sunroof and at that time there was an SX Limited trim above the SX. This also raises the question, why wasn't there a panoramic sunroof option in a car with such a long roof?
  • The Auto-Dimming Rearview Mirror w/ Homelink is only available on the SX Prestige trim. IMHO, it should also be available on the EX and SX trims. That's become a pretty standard feature on a lot of cars now so reserving it for only the top trim doesn't make sense to me. All the other trims have a Day/Night Rearview Mirror (without the Homelink).
  • The heated steering wheel is only available on the SX Prestige trim. This was available as part of the advanced technology package in my 2017 Sorento SX. IMHO, it should have also been included on the SX trim. The SX and SX Prestige are the only trims with ventilated front seats so not including the heated steering wheel with the SX trim appears inconsistent to me.
  • The LX and LX Seat Package trims have Forward Collision Avoidance-Assist (FCA) w/ Pedestrian Detection but the EX, SX and SX Prestige trims have Forward Collision Avoidance-Assist (FCA) w/ Cyclist Detection and Junction Turning. I'm assuming the one with cyclist detection also has the pedestrian detection but I'd like confirmation. It would be really stupid if they had to remove pedestrian detection to add cyclist detection.
  • The SX and SX Prestige trims both have the Surround View Monitor but only the SX Prestige has the Blind View Monitor. Why? They sound like they'd work together but maybe I'm just making an assumption.
  • The SX Prestige has a 12.3-inch Supervision Meter Cluster LCD Display but all other trims have a 4.2-inch Trip Computer Display. That sounds like a huge difference in display size. I'd like to see pics of both to see the difference.
  • Is there still a large enough cost difference between LEDs and incandescent bulbs so that it make sense for Kia to put all LEDs for headlights and taillights in only the top trim? I'm asking because the top trims for a lot of cars/SUVs/minivans are the only ones that seem to well on the IIHS headlight tests.
 

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  • The SX and SX Prestige trims both have the Surround View Monitor but only the SX Prestige has the Blind View Monitor. Why? They sound like they'd work together but maybe I'm just making an assumption.
  • The SX Prestige has a 12.3-inch Supervision Meter Cluster LCD Display but all other trims have a 4.2-inch Trip Computer Display. That sounds like a huge difference in display size. I'd like to see pics of both to see the difference.

The blind spot monitor displays on the SX Prestige's 12.3" digital dash, via cars.com


Kia AUS and NZ don't get the digital dash. There's the 4.2" display between the instruments and the 8" head unit
 

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The blind spot monitor displays on the SX Prestige's 12.3" digital dash, via cars.com


Kia AUS and NZ don't get the digital dash. There's the 4.2" display between the instruments and the 8" head unit
Thanks. Now it makes sense why the blind view monitor isn't on the SX trim and only on the SX Prestige because it requires the 12.3 inch supervision meter cluster LCD. Now I'll amend my comment to say both the 12.3 inch LCD and blind view monitor should be on the SX trim or at least be part of an optional technology package on the SX trim because I want the SX trim with the 8 passenger seating not the VIP lounge seats that are standard in the SX Prestige trim.

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
The downer for me for the top trim SX (or SX prestige for US versions) is that you can't get both practicality (ability to fold, slide-N-stow or remove the 2d row captain seats thus maximize Cargo space) and luxury (dual sunroof, Bose premium sterao, second row heated and cooled leather seats, passenger view, LED interio lighting, and in the US, Blind view monitor and 12.3 inc configurable instrument cluster). Kia should have made the top trim an 8 seater, and made the VIP lounge chairs an optional upgrade for those that choose to prioritize luxury for 2nd row occupants over practicality. Btw, choosing the VIP seats significantly reduces the max cargo space to 87cubic feet (still short of the already reduced 101 cubic feet for comparable seven seater Sienna) from 145 cubic feet for the 8 seater trims. Totally defeats the main reason for going for a minivan from a 3 row SUV. Funny thing is the 2015-2018 Kia Sedona had the 2nd row First class captain chairs in the top trims but was dropped in 2019-2021 models, I suspect due to low sales, some reviewers even criticized Kia for not making this an option at the top trim (as the penultimate Trim lacked some desirable safety features rather than make it a take-it-or-leave it situation).

That said, the 2021 XSE AWD Toyota Sienna would be comparable in pricing with the top SX (or SX Prestiuge in the US) Kia Carnival, but the Kia has the Sienna beat in convenient and safety features, the Sienna has the Kia Carnivsl beat in the areas of AWD and Hybridization.

Here lies my dilemma, which do I go for.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
After doing a trim comparison on the Kia US site, I have some comments and questions. Some of these things annoy me because I want the SX trim.
  • Since the dual sunroof is only available in the SX Prestige trim, I'm assuming that all others get a single sunroof. The dual sunroof should have been included on the SX trim. My 2017 Sorento SX had a panoramic sunroof and at that time there was an SX Limited trim above the SX. This also raises the question, why wasn't there a panoramic sunroof option in a car with such a long roof?
  • The Auto-Dimming Rearview Mirror w/ Homelink is only available on the SX Prestige trim. IMHO, it should also be available on the EX and SX trims. That's become a pretty standard feature on a lot of cars now so reserving it for only the top trim doesn't make sense to me. All the other trims have a Day/Night Rearview Mirror (without the Homelink).
  • The heated steering wheel is only available on the SX Prestige trim. This was available as part of the advanced technology package in my 2017 Sorento SX. IMHO, it should have also been included on the SX trim. The SX and SX Prestige are the only trims with ventilated front seats so not including the heated steering wheel with the SX trim appears inconsistent to me.
  • The LX and LX Seat Package trims have Forward Collision Avoidance-Assist (FCA) w/ Pedestrian Detection but the EX, SX and SX Prestige trims have Forward Collision Avoidance-Assist (FCA) w/ Cyclist Detection and Junction Turning. I'm assuming the one with cyclist detection also has the pedestrian detection but I'd like confirmation. It would be really stupid if they had to remove pedestrian detection to add cyclist detection.
  • The SX and SX Prestige trims both have the Surround View Monitor but only the SX Prestige has the Blind View Monitor. Why? They sound like they'd work together but maybe I'm just making an assumption.
  • The SX Prestige has a 12.3-inch Supervision Meter Cluster LCD Display but all other trims have a 4.2-inch Trip Computer Display. That sounds like a huge difference in display size. I'd like to see pics of both to see the difference.
  • Is there still a large enough cost difference between LEDs and incandescent bulbs so that it make sense for Kia to put all LEDs for headlights and taillights in only the top trim? I'm asking because the top trims for a lot of cars/SUVs/minivans are the only ones that seem to well on the IIHS headlight tests.
- I do not see any single pane sunroof in any of the lower trims, I am guessing there is only dual sunroof in the top SX (SX prestige in US) trim in take-it-or-leave it situation. Maybe when they release the full spec, this may change but I doubt it.

- I think Kia missed an opportunity here insofar as Safety features goes. The Japanese competition (Honda and Toyota) has equipped their latest minivans with all the modern safety features as standard even in the lower trims (except rear braking assist which Toyota require you to pick mid-tier XLEtrim and up). Alsolutely no reason to make customers go without these features in 2021.

-I agree that Auto-dimming rear mirrors with Homelink should be in at least mid-tier EX trim, this is not really a luxury oitem anymore in 2021.

- LED interior lighting should also be in SX trim, and not reserved for the top trim. I understand that the projector-type low-and high-beam LED headlamps should be in the top SX and SX (prestige) trims while lower trims have the reflector-type beams. This is similar to top-spec 2021 Toyota Sienna and 2021 Honda Odyssey. At least all trims come with LED headlamps which is good.
 
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For me AWD is not a deal breaker as I use Winter/Snow tires in all my cars they have served me well (I live in snow country so I know what I am talking about). The hybrid system, while attractive from green environment perspective, in the end is no big deal for me as I average 9000-10,000Km per year, and I am planning to sell in about 5-7 years, so the math for fuel savings is more than offset by the price diferentials (about $11,000 taxes in). If I add extra 2 -year Warranty for the Sienna to equalize the standard waranty period, this pushes the price diferential to over $13,500 CAD. Even after fuel savings of about $2000-3000 over a 5-7 year period (at $1 per liter, difference of 4 liters/100KM, for average 10000Km per year), and faster depreciation for the Carnival, when I sell the Carnival, there is still thousands of dollars in my pocket. New Kia vehicles are on par with Toyotas (and in some cases better) in recent Reliability Surveys (CR and JD Power), so I should expect comparable maintenance costs on both sides. I suspect everyone's situation and math is different.

Like I said, I am crunching the numbers for my specific situation and I am finding it hard to justify the $13,000 cost difference at the top trims for both vehicles.
Statistics is a very flexible science :)

On one hand, we have the 48K CAD vs. 58K CAD comparison that you quoted. That's a lot of CAD's! On the other hand, I am looking at our local dealerships in the northernmost bit of Virginia and seeing Siennas starting at $36K and Carnivals at $35K (I don't know what trims they are, though). All of a sudden the difference is 1,250 CAD and not 10,000 CAD.

For $38K you get an AWD Sienna. Some drivers say they need AWD, other don't. Those who do (like myself) see the extra cost of an AWD powertrain not as a penalty but as an investment into improved mobility and safety.

Regarding the mpg's or the L/100 km: apart from the purely monetary implications, there is also an ethical dimension to higher fuel efficiency. IMO a good hybrid powertrain is an excellent way to reduce air pollution without sacrificing the utility and convenience of your vehicle.

I noticed Kia stopped calling it a grand utility vehicle and now it’s a multipurpose vehicle. I hope that’s not an indicator that it won’t get AWD down the road.

-Mike
And if it did get AWD at some point, it's not clear what the cost would be.
 
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