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Except all the silly people (there were many of them) that were paying $5k over MSRP to get their Telluride, lol. Not worth it. Some are now at MSPR and below now.
You are probably not aware of what's going on in the world right now. It's chip shortage. Prices are over msrp even for models/brands that were not selling, let alone for highly in demand vehicles. Telluride is still in high demand and chip shortage only made it worse. They were almost as msrp as you said, but those times are long gone. You'll be lucky to even get one at $5-7k over msrp currently. Same for almost any brand including Toyota.
 

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If driving dynamics, power, luxury features, and safety systems are your primary criteria, you won’t buy a KIA minivan. You probably shouldn’t even be buying a minivan.
You don't buy a minivan for the driving dynamics. However if you look at the engine power, luxury features and safety systems of the 2022 Kia Carnival SX Prestige trim compared to the 2021 Sienna Platinum trim, the Kia holds it's own just fine. The Carnival has a 290hp V6 which is more powerful than the Sienna (but of course gets much worse gas mileage). The Carnival SX Prestige trim has dual power sunroofs, surround view monitor, blind spot view monitor, 12.3" LCD touch screen (which is bigger than the Sienna), a 12.3" LCD digital meter cluster, Bose 12 speaker audio system, passenger view (which allows you to see the 2nd and 3rd row passengers), dual screen rear entertainment system (instead of that ceiling mounted one in the Sienna which blocks the drivers rear view), 2nd row VIP lounge seating, heated and ventilated first and second row seats, heated steering wheel and a lot of safety features that are part of Kia's Drive Wise. Here's a list of them and many of them are standard on all trims.
  • Forward Collision-Avoidance Assist w/Pedestrian Detection
  • Forward Collision-Avoidance Assist w/Cyclist Detection & Junction Turning
  • Driver Attention Warning
  • Lane Departure Warning
  • Lane Keeping Assist
  • Lane Following Assist
  • High Beam Assist
  • Safe Exit Assist
  • Rear View Monitor w/Parking Guidance
  • Surround View Monitor
  • Blind-Spot Collision-Avoidance Assist
  • Blind-Spot View Monitor
  • Rear Cross-Traffic Collision-Avoidance Assist
  • Parking Distance Warning — Forward & Reverse
  • Parking Collision-Avoidance Assist — Reverse
  • Navigation-based Smart Cruise Control w/Stop & Go
  • Highway Driving Assist
Please note that I don't think the Kia is perfect. I have several complaints about it as well.
 

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You don't buy a minivan for the driving dynamics. However if you look at the engine power, luxury features and safety systems of the 2022 Kia Carnival SX Prestige trim compared to the 2021 Sienna Platinum trim, the Kia holds it's own just fine. The Carnival has a 290hp V6 which is more powerful than the Sienna (but of course gets much worse gas mileage). The Carnival SX Prestige trim has dual power sunroofs, surround view monitor, blind spot view monitor, 12.3" LCD touch screen (which is bigger than the Sienna), a 12.3" LCD digital meter cluster, Bose 12 speaker audio system, passenger view (which allows you to see the 2nd and 3rd row passengers), dual screen rear entertainment system (instead of that ceiling mounted one in the Sienna which blocks the drivers rear view), 2nd row VIP lounge seating, heated and ventilated first and second row seats, heated steering wheel and a lot of safety features that are part of Kia's Drive Wise. Here's a list of them and many of them are standard on all trims.
  • Forward Collision-Avoidance Assist w/Pedestrian Detection
  • Forward Collision-Avoidance Assist w/Cyclist Detection & Junction Turning
  • Driver Attention Warning
  • Lane Departure Warning
  • Lane Keeping Assist
  • Lane Following Assist
  • High Beam Assist
  • Safe Exit Assist
  • Rear View Monitor w/Parking Guidance
  • Surround View Monitor
  • Blind-Spot Collision-Avoidance Assist
  • Blind-Spot View Monitor
  • Rear Cross-Traffic Collision-Avoidance Assist
  • Parking Distance Warning — Forward & Reverse
  • Parking Collision-Avoidance Assist — Reverse
  • Navigation-based Smart Cruise Control w/Stop & Go
  • Highway Driving Assist
Please note that I don't think the Kia is perfect. I have several complaints about it as well.
Yes, KIA has had a lot of success by offering a huge list of features at a lower price than the competition. I hope the Carnival is a success so that it is offered with AWD, hybrid engine options, etc. And likewise the Sienna and others will have to step up the features to keep up. Everyone benefits from the added competition.
 

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Most people don't like minivan styling and prefer SUV styling. It's sad, because the minivan form factor is superior to SUVs. I like seeing this kind of experimentation with the sliding door!
I often wonder who came up with the notion that minivans are not cool just because they are maximizing the internal space w/o increasing the footprint. So, a minivan simply can't be cool, but if you make the nose 1 foot longer and raise the suspension by 3/4", all of a sudden you get a cool, stigma-free SUV?
 

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Yes, KIA has had a lot of success by offering a huge list of features at a lower price than the competition. I hope the Carnival is a success so that it is offered with AWD, hybrid engine options, etc. And likewise the Sienna and others will have to step up the features to keep up. Everyone benefits from the added competition.
Competition is the name of the game, everybody has to step up or lose the race for customers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #68 ·
If you care more about Driving Dynamics and smooth refinement, you won't be buying a Minivan or most SUV. LOL.
You get a V8 or electric vehicle if you want smooth refinement . Those V6 you speak of are far from Refined. I just drove a new 2021 Highlander V6.. I thought the V6 when you step on it was pretty UN-refined. The new upcoming 290 or 300 horse V6 kia/Hyundai minivan sending power to 1 front wheel. good luck in the rain with that on any inclines when having to merge with traffic. Constant traction control. Lack of traction. In reality the Sienna AWD will be same or faster, it can put all it's traction to use, esp. off the line and on hills. Punch Sienna to floor, minimal spin, digs in and goes. Punch Kia to floor to have to take off onto a highway, wheel spin, less power. Thats physics 101. BTW, I would never buy front drive Sienna ever. Had many Front drive Odyssey over years.. crappy traction. too easy to spin tire even on dry pavement. No thanks.
Yes, I care about driving dynamics and smooth refinement, And, yes I want it in my minivan because I want the cargo space and the ability to carry 6 adults in relative comfort. Nothing wrong with that. And no, an SUV will not cut it for me.
Don't wish to bust your bubble about the hype about AWD in traction in rain, the reality is AWD only helps when one is already in motion, keeps you going. It is no different from a 2-wheel drive from a starting point (under snow or rain surfaces) or when stuck in a snow pit. I have never felt wanting in driving my 2004 Sienna all these 17 years with good snow tires in the winter, I drive only within the city in snow plowed roads so don't need AWD. My other car, 2017 Santa Fe is AWD and I do not feel it is superior in any way to my FWD Sienna. Again, to each their own.
 

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The problem is that Minivan screams "Soccer Mom" and people want to avoid the stigma. They cannot stand the sight of those sliding doors. When we bought our first minivan, a 2008 Odyssey, a niece asked "Why did you buy that?" As someone suggested, if they moved the door handle to the rear to look like an SUV they would be far more acceptable. The primary reason that I own a minivan is that when you get to be 87 it is far easier to get in and out of a minivan than any other vehicle.
 

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The problem is that Minivan screams "Soccer Mom" and people want to avoid the stigma. They cannot stand the sight of those sliding doors. When we bought our first minivan, a 2008 Odyssey, a niece asked "Why did you buy that?" As someone suggested, if they moved the door handle to the rear to look like an SUV they would be far more acceptable. The primary reason that I own a minivan is that when you get to be 87 it is far easier to get in and out of a minivan than any other vehicle.
It's easier to get in and out of a minivan regardless of one's age :)

At 87 (I presume) it's a lot easier not to give a hoot about such constructs as "the stigma of a soccer mom". Moms are good. Soccer is just a game. Vans are practical.
 

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Don't wish to bust your bubble about the hype about AWD in traction in rain, the reality is AWD only helps when one is already in motion, keeps you going. It is no different from a 2-wheel drive from a starting point (under snow or rain surfaces) or when stuck in a snow pit. I have never felt wanting in driving my 2004 Sienna all these 17 years with good snow tires in the winter, I drive only within the city in snow plowed roads so don't need AWD. My other car, 2017 Santa Fe is AWD and I do not feel it is superior in any way to my FWD Sienna. Again, to each their own.
K, not sure where you are driving, but AWD will ALWAYS be better from a starting point, that where it is better in all weather conditions, especially in the rain/snow. There is no comparison! My 2WD Buick Enclave previous to the Sienna, with Blizzaks, did not get going like the 4WD Rav4 whatsoever in the snow or rain. It would spin getting going, gas waster. The Rav4, although a 1000lbs lighter, had no issues and would go without slipping at all. Past Subarus outshine all FWD cars I've owned in all weather conditions. I even tried a clutch dump with my Impreza 2.5RS in the rain to see how long it would spin.... hooked up and took off like dry pavement. Shocked me, was my first AWD. AWD/4WD will always trump FWD when starting off. That's where they excel, not when in motion. AWD/4WD will not stop a vehicle in motion from ending up in the ditch (physics will always win), but your chances of getting yourself out are greatly increased.
Is AWD necessary in the snow? That's another question, but to say the exact opposite of the truth is crazy. "the reality is AWD only helps when one is already in motion", this is the exact opposite of reality, AWD does not help you steer while in motion. You now that when you are in motion, AWD vehicles are running power only to the front wheels right? Because AWD is a waste in motion.

Sorry, had to chime in on this, unless its opposite day and I missed something...
 

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Yes, I care about driving dynamics and smooth refinement, And, yes I want it in my minivan because I want the cargo space and the ability to carry 6 adults in relative comfort. Nothing wrong with that. And no, an SUV will not cut it for me.
Don't wish to bust your bubble about the hype about AWD in traction in rain, the reality is AWD only helps when one is already in motion, keeps you going. It is no different from a 2-wheel drive from a starting point (under snow or rain surfaces) or when stuck in a snow pit. I have never felt wanting in driving my 2004 Sienna all these 17 years with good snow tires in the winter, I drive only within the city in snow plowed roads so don't need AWD. My other car, 2017 Santa Fe is AWD and I do not feel it is superior in any way to my FWD Sienna. Again, to each their own.
That’s not how AWD works. In fact, Toyota’s eAWD is always active below about 15mph. It is MOST effective at low speeds. I have driven AWD vehicles for decades: Audi, Subaru, etc. It’s just one of my criteria: I believe that vehicles should be driven by all four wheels. Personal preference.


In your case, the reason you never felt wanting is because you are a good bad weather driver. Pay attention, keep good winter tires, etc. AWD would just be another tool in your box, extra insurance if you will.
 

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At 87 (I presume) it's a lot easier not to give a hoot about such constructs as "the stigma of a soccer mom". Moms are good. Soccer is just a game. Vans are practical.
Absolutely agree! Everyone has/had a mom and chances are for vast majority it was/is most close and loving person who loved unconditionally, raised and nourished and provided support and what not. That "soccer mom" stigma is sexist and should be avoided if you ask me. And soccer or football is a #1 sport in the world. People who still call it a "soccer mom" - are in their majority very limited and still operate in high school terms and stereotypes that a true macho man can't drive a van and that only man are superior species. Bunch of losers and jerks if you ask me.
 

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Absolutely agree! Everyone has/had a mom and chances are for vast majority it was/is most close and loving person who loved unconditionally, raised and nourished and provided support and what not. That "soccer mom" stigma is sexist and should be avoided if you ask me. And soccer or football is a #1 sport in the world. People who still call it a "soccer mom" - are in their majority very limited and still operate in high school terms and stereotypes that a true macho man can't drive a van and that only man are superior species. Bunch of losers and jerks if you ask me.
Utility and mpg.....who cares what others think.
 

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It's easier to get in and out of a minivan regardless of one's age :)

At 87 (I presume) it's a lot easier not to give a hoot about such constructs as "the stigma of a soccer mom". Moms are good. Soccer is just a game. Vans are practical.
This is why I'm buying this T-shirt I saw Alex on Autos promote under one of his minivan videos. The shirt has a flow chart to help pick a type of car and all paths lead to a minivan.


Moderators: I hope I didn't violate any rules posting this so please forgive me if I did.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
 

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Absolutely agree! Everyone has/had a mom and chances are for vast majority it was/is most close and loving person who loved unconditionally, raised and nourished and provided support and what not. That "soccer mom" stigma is sexist and should be avoided if you ask me. And soccer or football is a #1 sport in the world. People who still call it a "soccer mom" - are in their majority very limited and still operate in high school terms and stereotypes that a true macho man can't drive a van and that only man are superior species. Bunch of losers and jerks if you ask me.
I always thought that machoism is supposed to be an immutable, intrinsic quality that doesn't depend on the type of a vehicle the person drivers, but what do I know .....
 

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I read somewhere that most men actually don't mind minivans and it's the wives that dread the image of soccer mom. In asia it's reversed and vans are considered premium and prestigious - kinda like limos. I so wish they carried something like the Toyota Alphard or Lexus LM here....


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