[catfish93]

Amazed at how few people were taught economics. Markets are based on supply and demand. When demand is high and supply is low, prices go up. That is not a problem we need politicians to fix. If you don't want to pay the price an item costs, do not buy the item.... at least from there. Maybe you can find a similar or identical item at a better price somewhere else. Whether that "somewhere else" is at a Honda, Chrysler, Kia, or even a different Toyota dealership is entirely up to you. We live in a free market society, which means that if someone is crazy, dumb, or desperate enough to pay $45,000 for a $40,000 vehicle, and the finance company will carry it (more on that in a second), the folks selling the in demand item will get what they can get. Would you sell your house for $500,000 if you could get $650,000? Of course not. And neither are they.

The market will very soon work itself out. Dealers are now demanding cash markups because lenders are saying "enough is enough" and they're not carrying thousands over MSRP anymore. It's too risky for them if the borrower defaults once the car has depreciated $20k in a year. The banks are seeing it coming and protecting themselves. Now, all that's left is for people to start saying "I don't have $5,000 in cash in addition to my down payment." If 20 people in a row say that, the markup will go away. It's only there because people pay it.

 

[catfish93]

Agree with your entire post except this part. We’re a hybrid economy with some parts free/unregulated, other parts managed solely by governments (federal and local), and most parts somewhere along a spectrum in between. We’re a hybrid market, at least according to the economics being taught.

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/an...onsidered-market-economy-or-mixed-economy.asp Okay, I've been wrong before, and I'll be wrong again. Although not totally free, we are far more so than many other markets. To the point that we, the consumers CAN walk away if we don't like the price. Which was my point. If enough choose to do this, it won't be very long at all until the sales manager looks out the window of his cushy office and says in his best Mr. Krabs voice "Where are the customers!?" when a midlevel employee busts in and yells "SIR! [competing dealer] JUST DROPPED ALL MARKUPS!" and the sales manager's mouth drops open, his cigar falling to the ground. "Damnit! Drop all incentives and put up a sign saying we'll beat any quote on any vehicle!" And just like that, the nonsense will be over.

 

[catfish93]

My extended waiting has turned into "will likely never purchase". It's just been too long and the pricing in NorCal is absurd. 2021 LE former rentals with 40-50k miles are still going for 40k. I went to look at one at my local dealer (who sold me 2 Siennas and a Camry in the past) earlier this month that was advertised at $35k. I got there the day it was first listed and sales guy says "We've already been offered $40k plus". For a nearly 2 yo former rental with 45k miles?! The gas savings aren't enough for me. My 2011 Limited AWD is still plugging along at 177k miles but it's time to move on. I'm actually trading it in on a 2020 CPO Volvo XC90 this weekend-6 seater with 30k miles for $38k. After I add the Volvo CPO for another $3200, I'm still in the same price ballpark for a luxury vehicle with 7 years/unlimited miles of coverage. Will the Volvo be as reliable? No but I've owned multiple Volvos and the CPO plan is excellent and covers just about everything. I have 4 kids and I'm trading legroom and rear storage for a luxury vehicle at the same price. We've made 5 hour trips in a Subaru Ascent and they haven't complained yet. A good cargo box takes care of cargo space issues and the seats are miles more comfortable. It's also as safe as it gets. If the Grand Highlander looks better, I'll consider it when demand tails off. Strange days in the car world.

Yet another example of dealer markups working against themselves in the long run. Our old friend competition wins in the end!

I considered the XC90 before I got the Sienna. I have a 2012 XC60 and it's been the best car I've ever had. 231k miles and counting. Snooty/lying salesman were the only reason I passed + I was able to find a Sienna at sticker (after some talks) in another town that had been cancelled by the buyer. Volvo's CPO program is truly a hidden gem, especially when stretched to the 10 year/unlimited mile limit. Do it, you won't regret it!

Be sure to check out the swedespeed forum for help/advice!

 

[catfish93]

I love Swedespeed. It's a great forum. I've owned a couple of XC70s and an older model XC90 and always found the answer to any question there.

RE your Volvo salesman experience-same for me! I'm not sure why but my local dealer is quite pretentious. It's funny because in my mind, the Mercedes and BMW dealers would be worse but I actually bought all 3 Volvos from various Mercedes dealers. They were much more down to Earth and easier to work with.

I was a loyal customer of my local Toyota dealer for all purchases and service for over 10 years. The 10k markup might work now but they lost me as a customer for life. If I ever buy another Toyota, I'll drive 90 minutes to one of the dealers that stayed with MSRP.

+1. I'm there as well. Same name.

The first guy looks down his nose at me and scoffs "And how do you plan to afford this vehicle?" Like that caught me off guard. Um? With money? The guy at the second dealership showed me a gorgeous 2019 XC90 momentum but it had some minor condition issues and high miles for the year. Despite having absolutely zero options, it was MORE expensive than the 2018 Inscription at the first place, and that one had half the miles. I inquired about CPO warranty, and was told it was covered. I asked for the warranty paperwork and was given a brochure for guarantee America or some trashy third party company. (Folks, if you're reading this and don't like me or whatever, I hope the one thing you learn from me is that if it is not a manufacturer warranty, it is not a warranty. You can rest assured that they will try every trick in the book to weasel their way out of paying your claim. The only warranty worth buying is one directly from the manufacturer.) The third guy was at a used car lot I had a rapport with, having bought 2 vehicles from them before. Another 2019 XC90 with highish miles and zero options. During my inspection, noticed a headlamp failure warning on the cluster. Went back and told them about it and they said they'd get it looked into and call me. Never heard from them. Having missed 3 XC90s I decided the universe was trying to tell me something so I ended up in the Sienna. As an Uber driver, it really is the smart choice. No vehicle can touch in in a revenue against cost per mile standpoint, and the 2-2-3 seating configuration is ideal for speedy loading/unloading. I just wish it had the supreme, comfortable, and serene driving experience of the XC90.

The local Toyota dealer to me is trash. My dad was in the market and their website said they had 3 hybrid Camrys in stock. So he goes in there.... nope. I get a call from him: "Hey, how much would a 2017 Prius have sold for new?" Idk.... $26k or so. "Well, they're trying to sell me this one with 17,000 miles on it for $40k." Don't walk, run! And he did. I had to go an hour out of town for my van. I almost had to pay about $500 over sticker, until the sales manager revealed that since my car was newer than the current year (2022 in 2021) that Toyota financial wouldn't honor the 1.9% financing that I had already signed a contract under. His mistake was telling me it was his fault for not realizing it. After a brief and rather angry exchange of words about now having 17 hard inquiries on my credit report AND a higher rate to boot, I was compensated for his mistake in the form of no longer paying over sticker. 😏