[jseyfert3]

No power steering pump, fluid.

That’s not exclusive to hybrids. My 2014 Sienna has electronic power steering too. As did my 2020 Silverado.

 

[Dimitrij]

Ill have to admit - i was one of the hybrid skeptics for the past 2 decades. In fact, i thought all hybrids were the same design (Honda and Toyota). Back in 2010 i opted for a Mercedes diesel to save gas. CVT was the other solution - but i knew from back then that a steel belt (cvt) wouldnt be as reliable than a manual or regular auto. Toyota should not have marketed the hybrid as having a CVT - they should have called it something else because of the negative stigma of the CVT. Fast forward 2021 - the sienna was introduced. Rented one from Enterprise - loved it ! Did some research - and found that video above in 2021. Lo and behold - CvT is not the same as ECVT ! So simple and elegant. I placed an order sept 2021 and took delivery 2 mos later.

Yep, Toyota does sometimes does like to speak with its corporate foot firmly lodged in its equally corporate mouth. If they think that "Power Splitting Device" or "Hybrid Synergy Drive" are hard to memorize or to pronounce, come up with something nicer, e.g. Epicyclic Hybrid Transmission (E.H.T), which it is.

P.S. I wonder how many hours did the marketing and branding department spent, conjuring the name Grand Highlander.

 

[Broncofan]

I agree with Cougarhound. The Honda CRV hybrid is vastly superior to the ICE CRV. Ditto for Camry hybrid, and Corolla hybrid, where all of these are made in either hybrid or ICE. The hybrids are quieter, smoother, (except with hard acceleration) get better gasoline mileage, AND ALL of these have more horse power than the gas only models!!!
Now, onto the Sienna, which is "The ONLY" hybrid minivan available. There is a reason why Toyota (largest auto manufacturer in the world) makes the Sienna EXCLISIVELY hybrid...Its better than the non hybrid. I estimate the additional cost for hybrids mentioned for Honda's and Toyotas, will be made up in a year or less, contrary to some other opinions posted for the reasons below:
1. Hybrids have better resale value. Why? Because "not JUST" new car buyers like saving $100 a month on fuel. Used car buyers like that also.
2. The Toyota and Honda's are "naturally aspirated"..they dont need a Turbo which tends to wear out engines quickly. I never like to buy a used (or new!) car with a Turbo. Turbo's just dont last. Instead of a Turbo, the hybrids SAVE fuel by harnessing energy from stopping, or coasting. If you are old school you probably know about people who would drive to the top of a hill, then coast down, to save fuel. Well, there are drawbacks to coasting, and many places its illegal, for some good reasons. But the hybrids store that lost energy from braking and coasting back SAFELY and automatically to the hybrid battery..available the next time you need quick acceleration or want to save fuel.
3. Hybrid's brake jobs last "multiples" of ICE. Why? Because, instead of wearing out your brakes when stopping or slowing down, this "free" energy is instead used to charge your battery instead of grinding away your brake linings. The brakes are often not used at all when stopping except emergency "quick" stopping.
4. There is no starter, and no alternator to break down, and cause expensive repairs in addition to the brakes lasting virtually forever. Your brakes dont "heat up" when applying the brakes long distances such as a long downhill road. INstead of heating up your brakes, you are charging your hybrid battery..to get free energy.
And, "heated up brakes" are very dangerous. Why? Because hot brakes are very inefficient at stopping your car. If you drive in Colorado, on I70, for example, you will see "runaway truck ramps". Why? Because heavy trucks are a great burden on brakes especially in Colorado windy roads and mountains. And those hot brakes are likely to fail, and cause serious damage to you and, to other cars around you. Thus, the need for "runaway truck ramps" in "mountain country", such as Colorado.

Keep your family safe... your brakes stay cool with hybrids, meaning much less brake failure. Hot brakes, like an overheated engine, often fail. Dont kill your brakes, drive hybrids instead. Even stop and go traffic kills brakes with the heat generated from frequent braking where your brakes dont have time in between stops to adequately cool. Overheated brakes are "runaway cars (or worse, heavy trucks)" just looking for something to crash into.

Brake overheating on cars, mostly in extreme conditions such as long downhills, or frequent stops, is a "recipe for disastrous brake failure". Dust and sand, too, get into brakes and the friction often causes overheating, not to mention frequent wear out of brakes. This "brake dust" often accumulates and remains on the brakes when you drive in extreme conditions and needs to be removed or, again, cause brake failure.

Its worth it to drive hybrids "just" for the safer braking, because, isnt your family worth it, even if hybrids were not cheaper on fuel? Often, the only symptom people have of brake failure is a crash, because, it takes a brake inspection which requires pulling a wheel to determine if brakes have been overheated and often warped, are full of brake dust, or just plain worn out.

 

[cougarhound]

And diesel is like $6 per gallon....fuggetaboutit.

 

[cougarhound]

I had a Prius and after ten years the battery went (a bit early, from what I've read). I changed it myself, with an aftermarket from Nick Vergunst from newpriusbasatteries.com. $1600 in 2016, and changing it was not difficult. He gave excellent instructions and support. I don't know if he's developed one for the Sienna yet, but his engineering seemed to match or beat Toyota's. I would not worry about the battery issues.

We bought a 2012 Sienna a couple years ago that had been babied like no tomorrow. I will also wait for the hybrid Siennas, or, better, EV to get established, and look at 3-6 year old ones. To me, early adoption is only good in theory.

I don't think an EV minivan is a good idea if you take long road trips like I do. I've been to Florida a few times and already have 80,000 miles on mine. I can't imagine taking road trips with an EV.

 

[sienna_2006]

Gasoline powered cars dont get the advertised mileage either, when you warm them up for a half hour..or idle to heat them, either.

For me, the hybrid is "all about saving money". It does not hurt a bit, either, that when I use less gas, it lessens the demand on fuel, so you can save money too (tho you probably wont notice it). In short, the hybrid saves "at least" $100 per month in gas. Probably more, if gas goes higher than $4 a gallon.

Just using EPA, which could be more or less depending on how you drive, here are the numbers:

At 15,000 miles per year, using EPA 36 combined for hybrid, 21 combined (year 2020) for non hybrid, you will consume 24.85 gallons MORE per month. (for the gas model). Or, 24.85 gallons of fuel saved with a hybrid.
If you pay an average of 4.00 per gallon, it will save you right at $100 per month (in fuel) to switch to the hybrid. If gas goes back to $5.00 per gallon, or more, then its $125 per month saved with hybrid sienna. And, in 10 years, who knows how much gas will be? $5, or even $6 or $7 is more realistic considering inflation, especially with gas.

If a hybrid costs $1500 more than non hybrid, you will make your money back, at $5.00 per gallon in less than 1 year. Whenever you can invest and be assured of getting your entire investment back in a year, its almost always a no brainer to go for it (the hybrid).

I buy exclusively hybrids, it seems to be throwing money away on gas guzzling non hybrids. It helps to think about it "as if" you had an old pickup that got 10 miles per gallon or less. You would likely be very tired of buying gasoline and paying 4 times as much as someone with an economy car getting a modest 40 mpg. To me, its like "buying insulation" for your home. It sure beats paying sky high gas bills. The only thing I regret about buying (my past 3 hybrids) is that I did not do it sooner. I would have saved about 100 per month in fuel for a much much longer time.

Where is the savings?
1) 4/5k premium for hybrid from traditional van
2) battery deteriorating over time
3) battery cost after 7/10 years @5k
4) total cost at end will be 10k more vs savings of 12k

 

[Dimitrij]

Where is the savings?
1) 4/5k premium for hybrid from traditional van
2) battery deteriorating over time
3) battery cost after 7/10 years @5k
4) total cost at end will be 10k more vs savings of 12k

How did you arrive at the 4/5K premium figure, I wonder? I'm not saying that this is incorrect, just curious about the methodology

Also, what makes you think the traction battery will need to be replaced after its warranty period (10 years or 150K miles)? Warranty expiration means that the manufacturer will no longer replace or repair an item for free, should it break, not that the item will immediuately become defective after the expiration. With Toyota, we do not assume the vehicle is going to break in half at 36,001 miles just because the bumper-to-bumper warranty expired.

 

[20swrt]

Where is the savings?
1) 4/5k premium for hybrid from traditional van
2) battery deteriorating over time
3) battery cost after 7/10 years @5k
4) total cost at end will be 10k more vs savings of 12k

Sienna does not have a non-ICE version so the closest to your description of "traditional" is the Honda Odyssey. Last year in Ohio - i did a price comparison between the Ody and the Sienna. From a price perspective - the XLE Sienna is the same price as a EX-L Odyssey (both no markups in Ohio - around $41-42k in early 2022). In California - its a different story because shortages and markups skew this figure in favor of the Honda.

IF there were no chip shortages - the only factor/s at play here are 1) battery replacement cost vs Fuel savings. Based web prices - the current price of a new HV battery is less than $4,000. Plus labor.

HV Battery warranty is up to 10 yrs or 150,000 miles. So IF we assume all the 40 battery modules need to be replaced by the end of 10 yrs or 150,000 miles - then yes - you can take out the $4,000+labor from whatever savings you gained from 2021 til 2031 and beyond (assuming gas price remains stable and battery replacement price stays constant til 203X).

Here are some factors you need to ask yourself. 1) Will there be cheaper/better batteries to replace the current Sienna battery ? Most likely yes (in fact - there are already companies switching the Prius NiMH to Lithium-Ion 2) Are you stuck with Toyota OEM battery parts for the life of the vehicle - No way ! Just count the Hybrid shops in town catering to fixing Prius HV batteries. 3) Do you need to replace all 40 at the same time ? Nope. I personally havent seen the process of replacing Sienna batteries but Prius batteries can be repaired in less than half a day. The big difference is that the Sienna HV battery is located underneath the driver seat so it will need a full service lift. 4) How long does a "standard" Honda ICE engine need to be replaced ? 5) The value of these used Siennas will be about 1/3 or 1/4 of a brand new one in 10 years. A good number of people here will trade in these Siennas for a better model anyway.

Lastly - the Sienna battery is less than 2kWh (1.9 kWh to be precise). The RAV4 prime is about 9x-10x bigger in capacity (18.1 kWh). So it really should not cost much in the future when battery production ramps up and technology for batteries become more and more affordable.

 

[jseyfert3]

Where is the savings?
1) 4/5k premium for hybrid from traditional van
2) battery deteriorating over time
3) battery cost after 7/10 years @5k
4) total cost at end will be 10k more vs savings of 12k

Well, $12,000 - $10,000 = $2000. So right there?

Also, the premium is an assumption. Remember, it costs companies money to offer multiple options. So what are the potential savings because the van does NOT exist as a hybrid? Could those not counter the normally seen price increase of a hybrid over non-hybrid? Closest comparison is probably the RAV4. The traditional RAV4 starting price advertised by Toyota is $2800 less than the hybrid starting price. This is going to be very similar to the Sienna, assuming a regular model even existed, because the RAV4 has a 1.6 kWh battery and the Sienna has a 1.8 kWh battery. The Sienna may have slightly bigger motors, but if it was even $4k I'd be shocked. Personally, I'm thinking there's quite substantial savings due to offering it ONLY as a hybrid.

I won't go over the battery life itself, but I do take issue with your cost analysis itself, regardless of life or cost. Assuming again it costs $5k, you can't consider the entire $5k in your example. Why? You have to depreciate it, like any asset. First off, you aren't likely to keep it 10 years, the battery dies, you replace it, and sell it immediately. Like everything about any vehicle, the health of the battery will affect the sale price. If you sell it with a failed battery, the price will reflect that. Likewise, if you sell it with a BRAND NEW battery, the price will reflect that too...in your favor.

The best thing here, IMO, is to depreciate it linearly over the lifetime. IF the battery lasts 10 years, and costs $5k, then you should calculate the cost over the 10 years, and it would be $500 per year. Own the van 3 years? $1500 for the battery. Own it 17 years? $8500 for the battery.

In other news, I plan on saving with a hybrid too. I'm gonna make my bicycle a hybrid, by adding electric pedal assist. If I can replace my entire work commute with it, where I average ~18 MPG, then at $3/gallon, I will save $75 in gas a month. In 14 months I'll have paid for the $1000 motor and battery in gas savings*. Add in the health benefits of regular exercise, reduced wear and tear on my van, and we've got a no brainer!

*what about the electric cost for the bike? Well, that will be maybe 0.5 kWh a day, at most, or up to $1.30 a month, which is hardly worth this footnote.

 

[cougarhound]

Where is the savings?
1) 4/5k premium for hybrid from traditional van
2) battery deteriorating over time
3) battery cost after 7/10 years @5k
4) total cost at end will be 10k more vs savings of 12k

If your battery dies before 200000 miles something is wrong. Price of my Sienna was comparable to any brand new van with AWD. I used to pay $400-$500 per month for a vehicle that gets about 20mpg. I'm at 80,000 miles so I think I already saved about $6000 in gas since I've owned this thing.

Hybrids have been out for 20 years now and the batteries have proven to be reliable. I'm not sure why people still think that battery swaps are a big issue.

 

[charlie7]

Wikipedia says a 3rd gen with the 2GR-FE engine, which would have been the one in the drag race, has 266 HP. Toyota says the 2023 Hybrid Sienna has 246 net system HP. The engine is only somewhere around 186, but assuming your battery isn't empty, when you floor for acceleration like in the above video, you get 246 HP, not 186 HP.

Wikipedia also says the 1st gen Sienna was ~200 HP, second gen was 230 HP from 2004-2006, and then the 266 HP from 2007-2016 (covering 2nd and 3rd gens), jumping up to 296 HP in the end of the 3rd gen from 2017-2020.

I don't think my 2014 is underpowered, and specs (and video) show for brief acceleration the Hybrid is gonna be about the same. Maybe Toyota took a step back in the "horsepower wars" that seem to affect all cars these days, but it's still got just a little less power than the longest running engine (the 2GR-FE) that was used for 9 years, and more power than Siennas had before that.

Also, I will keep saying: Within a couple years, Toyota will have a plug-in Sienna hybrid, the Sienna Prime, that will have over 300 combined HP. This is based on the fact that the RAV4 ICE is 203 HP, the RAV4 hybrid is 219 combined HP, and the RAV4 Prime is 302 combined HP. The ICE engine between the RAV4 hybrid and prime (plug-in hybrid) didn't change, but the larger battery let them use bigger motors and put out way more HP for short periods.

My gut feeling is that people passing on the hybrid Sienna because it's a hybrid haven't actually ridden in a hybrid. Like many, I poo-poo'd the Prius...then I actual rode in a coworker's Prius and I was like "wow, this this is nice, and it has a surprising amount of power!" Then I watched Weber Automotive's video on the Toyota hybrid transmission and I was like "holy &*@# this hybrid transmission is so simple and WAY less moving parts than a normal transmission!"

If you are passing on a hybrid BECAUSE it's a hybrid, please, go actually test drive one. Or if you have any idea how normal transmissions work and just how many moving parts and fiddly bits they have, watch this video and prepare to have your mind blown how mechanically simple the Toyota hybrid transmission is:

Constantly velocity transmissions belong in cheap Chinese scooters.

 

[FiremanBob]

Why a Sienna in May of 2021?

I bought mine sight unseen and without a test drive or never saw one in person until we were picking our up.

I’ve never owned a Toyota or a hybrid until now.

We don’t have kids, but we have two 70-pound Shepherds. We live in SWFL, and our families are 1,400 miles away in CT.

When we travel to CT in our previous vehicle (2018 Ford Explorer), the dogs would be on the “way back,” thus making the 2nd row full of bags and suitcases. This wasn't very good for many reasons.

1. We could barely see, never mind pet or interact with the dogs or give them water or treats…
2. God forbid if we ever were to get rear-ended, the dogs would be freaked, and if the windows were blown out free to jump out on the highway.

Also, I just had both hips and both knees replaced, so the sliding doors helped with the variety of walking devices (cane, crutches, or walker).

With the Explorer, when I would put my walking aid into the back seat and close the door, I would find myself 3-5 feet away from the driver's seat and have to get there with no aid.

With the Sienna, I put the walking device in the second row and close the sliding door, and I’m in the driver's seat, or I can close (or open) the slider from the driver's seat.


Efficiency! The Sienna gets at least twice the MPG as the Explorer. The Sienna is more comfortable and quieter.

I found this YouTube channel very informative, and it helped me pull the trigger.

The engine does shut off, BUT it's not the typical “start/stop” that cars have these days. The transition from gas to battery is perfect, and you must be trained to notice when it happens.

Timing- we had been “upside down” (owed more than worth) in our Explorer until this current new car/chip shortage. We discovered that our Explorer was worth only $5,000 less than we paid for it new four years ago!!! And $7,000 more than we owed. So, we couldn’t NOT trade in our Explorer and get a new, more versatile, more efficient, more comfortable vehicle that is under warranty.


Here is one more video from the “Car Care Nut” that helped me pull the trigger.

I don't think you'll have ANY regrets! I sure don't!

 

[jseyfert3]

Constantly velocity transmissions belong in cheap Chinese scooters.

Please actually watch the video I linked. The Toyota hybrid drive system is NOT the sliding belt CVT.

 

[Dimitrij]

Please actually watch the video I linked. The Toyota hybrid drive system is NOT the sliding belt CVT.

Indeed. As I said in post #42, Toyota sometimes likes to confuse people with misnomers or just awkward use of language . Can't blame someone like
charlie7, who has never driven driven a Toyota hybrid, for thinking the it's a CVT, because, you know, Toyota calls is e-CVT

 

[WrenchRunner]

Agree with OP. I'm not replacing my people pusher every 5 years because the huge multi thousand dollar battery went out. I'll restore and drive a classic before that'll happen. My money works hard for me and if I give you some of it for transportation I expect it to last 15-20 years.

 

[20swrt]

Agree with OP. I'm not replacing my people pusher every 5 years because the huge multi thousand dollar battery went out. I'll restore and drive a classic before that'll happen. My money works hard for me and if I give you some of it for transportation I expect it to last 15-20 years.

5 years ? Where is that data coming from ? I can't speak for newer Hybrids that use Lithium-Ion but the older Priuses mentioned in this article use Ni-MH like the Sienna.

Toyota Hybrid Owners Speak Out on Battery Length and Cost | Torque News

How long do hybrid batteries last and how much to replace? Hear from owners of Toyota Prius and other popular models.

www.torquenews.com

For those like the OP not yet convinced - my advice is "dont buy into all this hype". With the chip shortage and everything - my dealer in Ohio says its at least 1 year on the waiting list. Leave the inventory for the rest of us who need it the most and dont need convincing.

 

[cougarhound]

5 years ? Where is that data coming from ? I can't speak for newer Hybrids that use Lithium-Ion but the older Priuses mentioned in this article use Ni-MH like the Sienna.

Toyota Hybrid Owners Speak Out on Battery Length and Cost | Torque News

How long do hybrid batteries last and how much to replace? Hear from owners of Toyota Prius and other popular models.

www.torquenews.com

For those like the OP not yet convinced - my advice is "dont buy into all this hype". With the chip shortage and everything - my dealer in Ohio says its at least 1 year on the waiting list. Leave the inventory for the rest of us who need it the most and dont need convincing.

Yea I'm at 140,000 miles on my original battery. Hybrids like the Ford Escape and Chevy Volt are better engineered than their regular cars. Chevy Volt has been known to last 200,000+ miles. I think it's mostly just people stuck in past who believe that you have to change the batteries every 5 years. Even if my battery dies I can probably replace it myself about $1000. I have spent that much before on regular maintenance.

https://www.reddit.com/r/volt/comments/tfgz1p

 

[MikeDB52]

Where is the savings?
1) 4/5k premium for hybrid from traditional van
2) battery deteriorating over time
3) battery cost after 7/10 years @5k
4) total cost at end will be 10k more vs savings of 12k

I am entering my eleventh year on my Toyota Prius V. Batteries still charge to the highest programmed setting and I still average 46 to 59 mpg as I did when it was new.

 

[RomaniGypsy]

I had a Prius and after ten years the battery went (a bit early, from what I've read). I changed it myself, with an aftermarket from Nick Vergunst from newpriusbasatteries.com. $1600 in 2016, and changing it was not difficult. He gave excellent instructions and support. I don't know if he's developed one for the Sienna yet, but his engineering seemed to match or beat Toyota's. I would not worry about the battery issues.

We bought a 2012 Sienna a couple years ago that had been babied like no tomorrow. I will also wait for the hybrid Siennas, or, better, EV to get established, and look at 3-6 year old ones. To me, early adoption is only good in theory.

This is something that could easily give someone pause, especially if they aren't inclined to change it themselves. I could see many shops refusing to do that job simply because they have no experience with it, and then you're on to the stealership as your only option. The cost of replacing the battery eats hard into the gas savings if you keep it that long, on top of how there is always a premium for buying a hybrid over its gas-only equivalent. Monetarily, it ends up being a wash, and then it comes down to who do you want to pay - the oil companies or the mechanic? The mechanic would seem the much better choice, except then your vehicle is down for two weeks (one because they have no available appointments until a week and a half from today, and another day or two as they do the job) and it could be one of those "it's never the same after it's fixed" things.

This is part of why I think twice about a used Prius v, or maybe a regular Prius. I wouldn't want it to brick itself because the battery took a dump.

There is a bit of an issue with heat, but only because these vehicles still use engine coolant to generate heat. That makes the engine run more in the winter, to maintain its temperature. In our Prius v, it seemed like there was a temperature band within which it would not run. Let's say the thermostat opened at 180 or the engine would shut off at 180 if it had to warm itself up in cold weather when you weren't using it enough to keep it warm. It might dip down to 140 before kicking on to warm itself up again whether you need it or not. When you're running heat, it's probably programmed to stay much closer to 180. You can have heat when the engine is off; the water pump is electric.

As for the rest of y'all...

To the person with the 2012 Prius v: Watch for the head gasket. This was an issue from 2012-2014 as I understand, and it hit my 2014 at 216K miles.

For as much as I hate the greedy antics of big businesses, I don't think that newer vehicles will see their lifespans halved from greed. If anything, when a car manufacturer puts out crappy vehicles, people generally stay away from the brand. This has been manifested lately in how Chrysler / Dodge dealers have plenty of vehicles on their lots, as does Ford, but Toyota is still backordered. You'd have to pay me to get me to own a Chrysler product these days, and I haven't heard stellar reviews of Ford reliability. (What I have heard is, "You buy an F-150 because it's an F-150. You buy a Tundra because you want to have one truck that lasts the rest of your life.")

What we will see, on account of greedy big businesses, is cars not becoming as good as they can be. After all, if the average vehicle lasts 200,000 miles, why would Toyota aim for the moon and make vehicles that last 300,000 miles on average? All they'd have to do is land somewhere in the 225K-250K range in order to be far and away the #1 for reliability. They'll go to 300K average when everyone else is nipping at their heels, having exceeded 250K themselves. Just ask Preston Tucker what happens when you build a car that's far and away the best there'd be on the market.

 

[20swrt]

This is something that could easily give someone pause, especially if they aren't inclined to change it themselves. I could see many shops refusing to do that job simply because they have no experience with it, and then you're on to the stealership as your only option. The cost of replacing the battery eats hard into the gas savings if you keep it that long, on top of how there is always a premium for buying a hybrid over its gas-only equivalent. Monetarily, it ends up being a wash, and then it comes down to who do you want to pay - the oil companies or the mechanic? The mechanic would seem the much better choice, except then your vehicle is down for two weeks (one because they have no available appointments until a week and a half from today, and another day or two as they do the job) and it could be one of those "it's never the same after it's fixed" things.

This is part of why I think twice about a used Prius v, or maybe a regular Prius. I wouldn't want it to brick itself because the battery took a dump.

I too had the same hesitation for the last 10 yrs. I was always a proponent of saving fuel. 10-15 yrs ago - to save gas it was either CVT, direct-injection, diesel or hybrid. I did not choose hybrid because i also thought it would need special skills, tools, training - something that was not readily available in Ohio. Also, at that time - my hobby was RC helicopters and was just switching to Lithium-Ion electric heli's. I was amazed how much power these small batteries had. Over the years i sold all my nitro helis and never looked back. Also, my brother in california bought a used Prius 2007 prius in 2010. Some modules died in 2019 and had it replaced for less than $50 per module. One year later - he did it on his own in his own garage. I watched him do it and was amazed how easy it was. It was just an oversized RC car (in my mind). You can even use a RC charger to charge each module.

I have swapped several WRX/STi engines in the last 15 years. The work involved in fixing hybrid batteries is 10x easier. I would rather deal with a dead HV battery than a subaru engine swap. It takes the same amount of time to replace a dead Prius battery module than a set of subaru spark plugs or timing belt swap.