Anyone else pass on all hybrid Sienna lineup?

5187 Views 76 Replies 36 Participants Last post by Dimitrij, 1 mo ago

north

Discussion Starter · 4 mo ago

Not being produced with a conventionally powered (only) options removed the new Sienna from our list. Just wondering if anyone else did the same.

No sour grapes, Toyota can do whatever it wants. As can I.

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Nexus7

· #61 · 4 mo ago

I understand there are shortages of batteries right now... but Toyota is missing out on making their vehicles a lot cheaper by putting in PHEV functionality, taking advantage of the federal subsidy. Especially vehicles such as the Sienna that already have HEV drivetrains.

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cougarhound

· #62 · 4 mo ago

Nexus7 said:
I understand there are shortages of batteries right now... but Toyota is missing out on making their vehicles a lot cheaper by putting in PHEV functionality, taking advantage of the federal subsidy. Especially vehicles such as the Sienna that already have HEV drivetrains.

Someone posted something about Toyota having the most debt out of all of the manufacturers. Car manufacturing is tough. They seem to go bankrupt all of the time. I assume Toyota just don't wanna take the risk if they don't have to. I don't see that many people driving around with plug in hybrids.

20swrt

· #63 · 4 mo ago

cougarhound said:
……o. I don't see that many people driving around with plug in hybrids.

That might be why GM killed the Volt (once voted car of the year). Its just too expensive to make.
From a manufacturing perspective - BEV should be the simplest to make. Followed by HEV. Hardest to make is PHEV because the battery is about 10x the size of a typical HEV. Hybrids are hard to make because it has all the components of a ICE plus BEV combined. The biggest challenge is making enough batteries to make PHEV and HEV. It might take a decade for battery mfg to make enough batteries to create healthy competition - similar to ICE mfg today.

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Dimitrij

· #64 · 4 mo ago

20swrt said:
That might be why GM killed the Volt (once voted car of the year). Its just too expensive to make.
From a manufacturing perspective - BEV should be the simplest to make. Followed by HEV. Hardest to make is PHEV because the battery is about 10x the size of a typical HEV. Hybrids are hard to make because it has all the components of a ICE plus BEV combined. The biggest challenge is making enough batteries to make PHEV and HEV. It might take a decade for battery mfg to make enough batteries to create healthy competition - similar to ICE mfg today.

I think the Killing of the Volt was a purely political decision, because the Volt was a product of political arrangements in the first place. PHEV's are indeed the most expensive to make, but I don't recall GM having problems selling the Volt for a high price. Besides, the cost of mass-manufactured items depends on the volume of the production - the more is made, the cheaper per unit it usually turns out to be. And if GM had bothered to scale the Volt up to the size of the Equinox, they could have asked $50K for it (in the pre-Covid dollars) and beat both the Volt sedan and Bolt hatchback in annual sales figures.

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Nexus7

· #65 · 4 mo ago (Edited)

I don't know if PHEV sales are limited by people not wanting them, or by manufacturing capacity. They're using the same drivetrain in the RAV4 and Sienna, largely. RAV4 Prime sales were limited because they couldn't get enough batteries. Let's say that battery shortages ease somewhat, to where they can increase PHEV production, but still not enough for EV production. Would Toyota then make more RAV4 Primes - probably yes, since they get snapped up right away. Tax rebates up to $10 k (federal and state subsidies combined) surely play a role.

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starlightmica

· #66 · 4 mo ago

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A Sienna Hybrid has a NIMH battery with a 1.9kWh capacity, and resides under the front seats. The Highlander and Grand Highlander has a similar battery under the 2nd row.

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The RAV4 Prime has a larger 18kWh lithium ion battery under the floor of both the 1st and 2nd rows. It’s on the same TNGA-K platform as the Sienna & company, could point to how a PHEV powertrain would fit. Toyota stated previously that they have had difficulty with making enough RAV4 Primes, presumably because they don’t have enough lithium batteries coming through their supply chain.

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The Lexus UX 300e is on a a different platform than the above, TNGA-C shared with the Corolla/Cross. It’s been available overseas for couple of years and has a 54kWh lithium battery, smaller than the 71kWh that the bZ4x/Solterra/RZ450e triplets have.. I suppose that’s where a good chunk of Toyota’s lithium supply goes, although Toyota/Lexus sold about 500K hybrids in the US last year and not all of them have NiMH cells.

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cougarhound

· #67 · 4 mo ago

There is a lot of risk in adopting new technology in a new market. If they spend billions on new tooling, batteries, etc and nobody buys the product and then what?

Nexus7

· #68 · 4 mo ago

cougarhound said:
There is a lot of risk in adopting new technology in a new market. If they spend billions on new tooling, batteries, etc and nobody buys the product and then what?

It isn't new tech though. They use the drivetrain in the RAV4 Prime; and it's similar to the one in the Sienna already. They needn't even go to the 18 kWh of the RAV4P, they need only 7 kWh to be eligible for the Federal tax credit. One number I saw was that Prime battery adds 660 lb to the weight over the plain hybrid RAV4. So roughly 300 lb say for the 7 kWh; not bad as it'll make it the only PHEV AWD minivan, and eligible for major price breaks.

Caveat though, Toyota raised the price of the RAV4P more than the tax credit.
In any case, I think we have to wait for this war to end before normal market forces and marketing calculations can take hold again.

cougarhound

· #69 · 4 mo ago (Edited)

Nexus7 said:
It isn't new tech though. They use the drivetrain in the RAV4 Prime; and it's similar to the one in the Sienna already. They needn't even go to the 18 kWh of the RAV4P, they need only 7 kWh to be eligible for the Federal tax credit. One number I saw was that Prime battery adds 660 lb to the weight over the plain hybrid RAV4. So roughly 300 lb say for the 7 kWh; not bad as it'll make it the only PHEV AWD minivan, and eligible for major price breaks.

Caveat though, Toyota raised the price of the RAV4P more than the tax credit.
In any case, I think we have to wait for this war to end before normal market forces and marketing calculations can take hold again.

Well Even Elon Musk warned the other manufacturers. I hear Ford is having issues with the Lightning. The Pacifica Plug in Hybrid had issues too and I think Chrysler is actually the leader in plug-in minivans....Kinda ironic since Toyota started it all. Toyota seems to have issues sourcing batteries for some reason. Prob cause it doesn't meet their standards? Can't think of any other single 7+ passenger EV/PHEVs in the US. VW delayed their ID Buzz.

I have Canoo EV stocks and I'm close to losing all of my money cause they are close to bankruptcy. Lol. Seems like once you get pass a certain payload size EVs just get very hard to make.

Dimitrij

· #70 · 2 mo ago

cougarhound said:
Well Even Elon Musk warned the other manufacturers. I hear Ford is having issues with the Lightning. The Pacifica Plug in Hybrid had issues too and I think Chrysler is actually the leader in plug-in minivans....Kinda ironic since Toyota started it all. Toyota seems to have issues sourcing batteries for some reason. Prob cause it doesn't meet their standards? Can't think of any other single 7+ passenger EV/PHEVs in the US. VW delayed their ID Buzz.

I have Canoo EV stocks and I'm close to losing all of my money cause they are close to bankruptcy. Lol. Seems like once you get pass a certain payload size EVs just get very hard to make.

Toyota has finally - at least on the pressroom noise level - come to the same conclusion that I did a few years ago: a 100+ mile PHEV would actually be a practical EV that operates as either an EV, or a highly efficient and powerful hybrid for almost all people almost all the time. What is taking so long.

I don't know about Canoo. I think the job of the Bizarre Looking Vaporware in the light-duty truck segment has already been taken by the Cybertruck, but maybe Canoo could explore the last-mile delivery vehicle market.

Toyota Planning Plug-In Hybrid Vehicles With Over 124 Miles Of Electric Range (motor1.com)

datsa noydb

· #71 · 1 mo ago

charlie7 said:
Constantly velocity transmissions belong in cheap Chinese scooters.

jseyfert3 said:
The Toyota hybrid drive system is NOT the sliding belt CVT.

Also please note that "CVT" is not "Constantly velocity transmissions", it is "Continuously Variable Transmission.

And, as jseyfert3 says, that is NOT what the Toyota transmission is.

.

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20swrt

· #72 · 1 mo ago

datsa noydb said:
Also please note that "CVT" is not "Constantly velocity transmissions", it is "Continuously Variable Transmission.

And, as jseyfert3 says, that is NOT what the Toyota transmission is..

Toyota Marketing really screwed up here. They should have not used the term CVT anywhere near their Hybrid vehicles. I personally stayed clear of any Toyota hybrid product for 2 decades because i also thought hybrids used belt-CVTs.

Nexus7

· #73 · 1 mo ago

20swrt said:
Toyota Marketing really screwed up here. They should have not used the term CVT anywhere near their Hybrid vehicles. I personally stayed clear of any Toyota hybrid product for 2 decades because i also thought hybrids used belt-CVTs.

They did.. they called it Hybrid Synergy Drive and power-split device and other things... the lazy magazine writers use the CVT term.

20swrt

· #74 · 1 mo ago (Edited)

Nexus7 said:
They did.. they called it Hybrid Synergy Drive and power-split device and other things... the lazy magazine writers use the CVT term.

toyota.com. Not magazines

20swrt

· #75 · 1 mo ago

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20swrt

· #76 · 1 mo ago

See what I mean by Toyota Marketing ?

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Dimitrij

· #77 · 1 mo ago

20swrt said:
See what I mean by Toyota Marketing ?
View attachment 62225

Unfortunately, you are correct.

CVT has a bad reputation in the US, courtesy of Nissan, but others "helped along".

Presenting a markedly non-CVT transmission as CTV transmission, to the reliability-conscious Toyota crowd requires a remarkable level of tone-deafness. It's like naming your financial advisor office "Bernie Madoff & Swindlers".

As one of the Conservative commentators once said, "Nobody is born that stupid. To get that stupid, you need to go to a 4-year college"

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