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I drive a Tundra and a BMW 550i. My wife drives a Sienna XLE Limited. Our teenager has a new Corolla. We only have the Sienna for ski trips or road trips when family come from out of town and it is very practical. For hauling and guy stuff I have the truck. For luxury I have the 550. Does my wife really need a van? No. Would it be nice to have the van utility? Yes.

However, if I'm about to spend $50k should I have to put up with the Toyota buying experience? No. It might not be the model 3 we go for but as soon as the Toyota slime bags try to add paint protection twice they can shove it. I'm sure I'm not the only one getting cold feet with Toyota. The markets are changing.
 

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The Silicon Valley attitudes of “move fast, break things” and “ask for forgiveness, not for permission” is in full force at Tesla. Figuring that humans get around with just two eyes, Musk had radar removed a couple of years back, followed by ultrasonic sensors last fall figuring that he can save lots of money by going with software only. Yes, both are standard on Sienna XLE and up, radar on LE. The Tesla does have more powerful computers on board.

Musk has poo-poohed LIDAR sensors used by all other autonomous driving companies, used to give an autonomous car a live 3D map of its surroundings, rather than relying on software algorithms only onboard a Tesla. Those companies have deployed pilot autonomous robotaxis, while “Full Self-Driving” that costs $15K is still stuck at SAE Level 2. Deploying FSD with subpar hardware on unwitting beta testers whose lives may be at stake is just bad.



Viral quote from a former Twitter software engineer.
+1!!
 

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The Silicon Valley attitudes of “move fast, break things” and “ask for forgiveness, not for permission” is in full force at Tesla. Figuring that humans get around with just two eyes, Musk had radar removed a couple of years back, followed by ultrasonic sensors last fall figuring that he can save lots of money by going with software only. Yes, both are standard on Sienna XLE and up, radar on LE. The Tesla does have more powerful computers on board.

Musk has poo-poohed LIDAR sensors used by all other autonomous driving companies, used to give an autonomous car a live 3D map of its surroundings, rather than relying on software algorithms only onboard a Tesla. Those companies have deployed pilot autonomous robotaxis, while “Full Self-Driving” that costs $15K is still stuck at SAE Level 2. Deploying FSD with subpar hardware on unwitting beta testers whose lives may be at stake is just bad.



Viral quote from a former Twitter software engineer.
Priceless quote from the engineer!

Regarding sienna sensors, what are the differences in the installed sensors and safety driving systems installed in the LE vs the XLE? The online specs just mention that toyota safety sense 2.0 is installed in both trims, no mention of any sensor differences between the two trims.
 

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Priceless quote from the engineer!

Regarding sienna sensors, what are the differences in the installed sensors and safety driving systems installed in the LE vs the XLE? The online specs just mention that toyota safety sense 2.0 is installed in both trims, no mention of any sensor differences between the two trims.
XLE and higher trims have front/rear ultrasonic sensors which display braking distance on the MID and automatically brake if you're too close to an object, or if there's a pedestrian in the way. It's listed on the spec sheet as "Front and Rear Parking Assist with Automatic Braking (PA w/AB)".
 

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I drive a Tundra and a BMW 550i. My wife drives a Sienna XLE Limited. Our teenager has a new Corolla. We only have the Sienna for ski trips or road trips when family come from out of town and it is very practical. For hauling and guy stuff I have the truck. For luxury I have the 550. Does my wife really need a van? No. Would it be nice to have the van utility? Yes.

However, if I'm about to spend $50k should I have to put up with the Toyota buying experience? No. It might not be the model 3 we go for but as soon as the Toyota slime bags try to add paint protection twice they can shove it. I'm sure I'm not the only one getting cold feet with Toyota. The markets are changing.
Part of the reason Tesla has been successful is the horrible dealership buying experience virtually everyone has encountered at one time or another. It is not exclusive to Toyota. State laws protect dealers and manufacturers often have little real control over their dealers.

The Sienna is a great vehicle and I found a very good dealer to buy from but not on my first few attempts. The wait times for Sienna's are quite long so if you need a vehicle now it may not be the best option.
 

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Circus posted that Tesla's "propietary software" will be junk in 10 years. He probably wrote that post on a computer with "propietary software", likely either Apple or Microsoft, like Im doing now. Dont get me wrong, Im a huge open source software fan. Linux Mint was my go to computer software for my desktop for around 10 years. Geuss what? Linux Mint had bugs too. Then a fix, and more bugs. Pretty much just like Apple and Microsoft. People always want new software with the newest, unproven technology. How many people have a 10, 15, or 20 year old computer they still use? Nope. Its in the junk yard, along with gasoline powered cars, EV's and pretty much everything we buy. I cant tell you the statistics, but my guess is most things we buy will be in the junk pile in 10 years, except our real estate. Yea, my "other car" is a 2005 Cadillac, still running strong, but it is an exception which proves the rule, not invalidates it.
 

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Circus posted that Tesla's "propietary software" will be junk in 10 years. He probably wrote that post on a computer with "propietary software", likely either Apple or Microsoft, like Im doing now. Dont get me wrong, Im a huge open source software fan. Linux Mint was my go to computer software for my desktop for around 10 years. Geuss what? Linux Mint had bugs too. Then a fix, and more bugs. Pretty much just like Apple and Microsoft. People always want new software with the newest, unproven technology. How many people have a 10, 15, or 20 year old computer they still use? Nope. Its in the junk yard, along with gasoline powered cars, EV's and pretty much everything we buy. I cant tell you the statistics, but my guess is most things we buy will be in the junk pile in 10 years, except our real estate. Yea, my "other car" is a 2005 Cadillac, still running strong, but it is an exception which proves the rule, not invalidates it.
The difference being electronics in cars are often left behind with no option to upgrade at some point, and electronics cannot be swapped without permission from Tesla. Whereas my 15 year old desktop computer that’s running Linux Mint can be upgraded to the latest version of Linux Mint. Or Windows, should I choose. Or any number of other versions of Linux. And I can swap or replace any of the components inside without them being locked from working until I get permission to do so from some company. I’m not stuck with something that may break and not able to replace it because some company stopped making it, or decided I’m not allowed to change it.

Whereas with the car, that’s not an option. Carmakers in general, like a lot of companies, are leaning towards locking in electronic parts and not letting anyone but their own company swap them, actively blocking users or third parties from swapping in perfectly good items from junked cars or third party sources. Tesla is not the only car company doing this, but they have way more electronics bits than most vehicles, and some of the tightest locks, to my current understanding.

As an aside, in addition to that 15 year old desktop, used for oddball stuff (used as a digital interface for HF ham radio, now as a sound generator for my digital piano), my primary desktop computer is now 12 years old, and running strong. It is a Thinkserver desktop server, currently set up with two primary SSDs, one boots Linux Mint 21.1, one boots Windows 10. I’ve had some desire to replace it, but only for running a much more modern GPU as the PSU is underpowered for modern ones, and may not be able to be replaced as it has dual redundant PSUs like most servers, not the easily swappable desktop PSU supply. For any other use, it’s massively overpowered, which makes it an absolute joy to use, and I usually get mad at how slow most other computers are in comparison. 12 years, going strong, and no intentions to junk it.
 

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22 Sienna XLE+ FWD, 22 Tesla Model Y LR
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My wife drives the 2022 Sienna XLE and I drive the Model Y. It's the best of both worlds because the Sienna is the family car that is super comfortable for the 4 of us. The Model Y is the car I use to commute. If we take any extended drive, it's always in the Sienna because there's more space, more comfort, and the cost of charging on the road is not much cheaper than the cost of gas.

I also got lucky in that my Model Y seems to have been built pretty well. No issues in the 1 year of ownership so far. I'm also in the SF bay area so easy access to service centers. I have a 240V wall connector installed in the garage so charging at home is very cheap. If OP is considering a Tesla, the Y is much more practical over the 3.

The Model Y and Sienna are polar opposites. One is slow, the other is fast. One is techy and the other is... not so much.
 

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The difference being electronics in cars are often left behind with no option to upgrade at some point, and electronics cannot be swapped without permission from Tesla. Whereas my 15 year old desktop computer that’s running Linux Mint can be upgraded to the latest version of Linux Mint. Or Windows, should I choose. Or any number of other versions of Linux. And I can swap or replace any of the components inside without them being locked from working until I get permission to do so from some company. I’m not stuck with something that may break and not able to replace it because some company stopped making it, or decided I’m not allowed to change it.

Whereas with the car, that’s not an option. Carmakers in general, like a lot of companies, are leaning towards locking in electronic parts and not letting anyone but their own company swap them, actively blocking users or third parties from swapping in perfectly good items from junked cars or third party sources. Tesla is not the only car company doing this, but they have way more electronics bits than most vehicles, and some of the tightest locks, to my current understanding.

As an aside, in addition to that 15 year old desktop, used for oddball stuff (used as a digital interface for HF ham radio, now as a sound generator for my digital piano), my primary desktop computer is now 12 years old, and running strong. It is a Thinkserver desktop server, currently set up with two primary SSDs, one boots Linux Mint 21.1, one boots Windows 10. I’ve had some desire to replace it, but only for running a much more modern GPU as the PSU is underpowered for modern ones, and may not be able to be replaced as it has dual redundant PSUs like most servers, not the easily swappable desktop PSU supply. For any other use, it’s massively overpowered, which makes it an absolute joy to use, and I usually get mad at how slow most other computers are in comparison. 12 years, going strong, and no intentions to junk it.

I have no idea why they decided to encrypt the ecu so I can't use comma.ai? The 2023 Highlander doesn't have the security key? Kinda makes me wanna sell this thing now that I think about it. I don't like authoritarians.
 

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Remember how hackers were able to control a Jeep through the infotainment system a few years ago? I'm sure lawyers for car manufacturers are trying their best to prevent that from ever happening again, making sure that computers are locked down. Sorry, no Comma.ai for us recent purchasers.

Did some Googling last night and saw that Toyota has used Automotive Grade Linux for their infotainment system starting with the 2018 Camry. The navigation software was written by a Tokyo developer and doesn't look much different now vs screen shots from a decade ago. Automotive chips are far slower than current smartphone counterparts, as they are certified for use under extreme conditions that the latter can't tolerate, and used for many years.

IIRC The new infotainment system was designed by a team at Toyota's US division that convinced HQ that a major update was needed. Processing speed was upped fivefold vs the old (current for us Sienna owners) and wireless Carplay was made standard. Toyotas are getting the new setup by 2025.

Toyota is working on a new underlying car OS named Arene that will be able to incorporate autonomy. It won't be ready for a couple of years.
 

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I forgot about Toyota's sudden acceleration problem from the late 2000's which DOT ruled was due to stuck carpet mats and the ever present problem of stepping on the wrong pedal. Toyota settled for $1.2 billion.

Toyota more recently instituted programming to override pedal misapplication. Sorry, your freedom to plow into a farmers market has been curtailed.
Yea and for some reason people over in Mexico and the Taliban were fine with their Toyotas. Lol.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were "Better Call Saul" law firms out there that would pounce at any class action lawsuit. I've even seen some questionable stuff online from people trying make it look like the gen 4 has a fire safety issue....They seem to disappear though.
 

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I’ve had my Sienna 25thAE for almost a month now. My wife drives a 22 Tesla Model Y. Guess which one I took on a road trip to Florida? The Model Y, even with the 19 inch wheels, rides like shit in the back. Real-world range? About 2/3rds unless you’re driving at 55mph with no wind and slightly downhill. You’ll NEVER get the full 330 miles of range. Pay attention when you close the door on any Tesla, then immediately go and close the door on a Lexus. Get back to me when you do so and tell me how they feel and sound. Of course, it’s got great acceleration. I stomp on it anytime there’s a Mustang next to me. Tesla fans tell me all the time how I should just put it on autopilot and let the car do its thing. It’s a more relaxing drive they say. Nah, I’ve tried it and I’ll hold on to the wheel and maintain control myself.

What part of supply chain constraints don’t you understand? They can’t make enough Siennas to meet demand right now.


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Thats very important feedback. So you recommend the Sienna correct .not Model Y ?
I feel the same there is no correct comparison betw model Y vs Sienna . In Sienna you will get so luxurious space which is most important for comfort .. its not about VAN vs SUV/ Sedan in practical its comfort , space matters. I love the Sienna Toyota Safety Sense with Radar - Adaptive cruise & lane centering . This is great & relived all of my stress during driving . I think at end you need to have the value for money deal with lowest depreciation. All Tesla aftermarket pricing is going sharp down due to Tesla price reduction last week. So I personally dont recommend Tesla . We had same situation & frustrated with dealer’s & finally we got the Sienna .. just hold little patience.
 

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We're a Toyota family and have been on the waiting list for a Sienna since October. Our experience with the Toyota buying experience has been worse than terrible. Dealerships constantly switching stories, passed between sales guy to sales guy and forced options we simply don't want. The latest is the gulf states paint protection then the dealer paint protection mark up on the same vehicle. Not to mention the mudguards, roof rails and rear entertainment system etc. etc. It's Nuts!

It looks as though Tesla came down below the EV tax credit on some models. A Model 3 performance after the credit is now $47k. My wife and I are about to place the order online for the Tesla and cancel the Toyota. We really wanted the Sienna but are running out of patience with the whole process.

The crazy thing is that we can order the Tesla from home, without the dealership slime and have the Tesla delivered first week in Feb 2023.

Decisions, decisions. One thing I know is if the Toyota dealership try anything else from this point they can stick their van up their ***
As a Tesla owner I would STRONGLY advise against it. They are shoddily built, with no adequate support for all that have been sold. Then there’s the inevitable result of the over 200 lawsuits that Tesla are currently defending against. G’luck either way.
 

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A Tesla sedan and a hybrid ICE van have vastly different capacities and capabilities. If you don't need a van, most definitely get something else, like another EV or maybe a prius? Toyotas are far from perfect, but teslas have dreadful build quality. If you are going to get an EV, there will be many more choices soon, and prices are going to drop as well.
The Kia EV6 and Hyundai Ionicq5 were the top EVs tested by Consumer Reports. Teslas are notoriously unreliable.
 
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Not a Tesla owner but if I owned one, I would leave it at home and drive my 2002 4runner if I was driving to Alaska again.

If I had an hour commute to work I would prob buy a Tesla. My commute is only 20 mins. So a Tesla is overkill for my needs. I do kinda like those BMW I3s though....I'm weird like that.
 

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Agree with the others. It’s understandable to be upset with Toyota, but dropping the minivan to go with a small sedan doesn’t make any sense. Either you want a minivan, or you want an electric sedan. The two vehicles almost couldn’t be more different.

I’ve ridden in a passenger in my CEOs Model S. Top of the line model from like 2015 (like $130,000). Crazy fast acceleration. Tons of fun! But my 2014 Sienna is way more practical. I don’t have kids, but I’ve enjoyed hauling 4x8 sheets of plywood, between the van and a U-haul trailer I moved (just me) without needing to rent a truck, and have hauled all sort of other stuff.


If you’re unhappy about waiting for an insanely popular Toyota, think really hard about a Tesla. Sure, you can order one and have it delivered ASAP. But when something goes wrong, where are you going to have it serviced, and how much will it cost? More importantly, how long will it take? I’ve read plenty of horror stories of it taking weeks or months for a service place to get parts. Chances are the hybrid Sienna, once you are able to get one, will be able to get serviced relatively fast at a dealer. Tesla, perhaps not.

Also, while I’m admittedly not a fan of Elon Musk, at all, keep in mind it’s essentially fact now that AutoPilot will never work the way it’s advertised to work. And TESLA stock is down over 50% as of now, back to 2020 prices. You certainly may not be happy to buy a vehicle that is known to have service speed issues only to have the company itself go belly-up in the next year or two. Toyota will at least still be around, and parts available, for the foreseeable future.

Bottom line is while I’m certainly not brand loyal, you need to determine:
  • What are your requirements for a vehicle?
    • Minivans aren’t sedans, two totally different styles of vehicles with different usages
    • Tesla isn’t the only option for electric vehicles, including electric sedans
  • What are you willing to put up with?
    • For purchasing?
    • For future ownership, and cost and ease in service?
Toyota parts are not immune to supply chain issues. My Tacoma has been sitting on a Toyota dealership lot for two months now waiting on a part. Hard to believe when there’s about a zillion Tacomas out on the road.
 
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