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Transmission Flush or Drain & Fill? 125K Mile car

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Transmission Flush or Drain & Fill? 125K Mile car

46K views 23 replies 9 participants last post by  jkowtko 
#1 ·
I have a Toyota Avalon '00 ( since its a sienna site, think it as a sienna instead avalon ;D) 125K Mileage

The tranny fluid is dark color. black/dark brown. I doubt the previous owner did any work on transmission. I pull the plug and let it drained out last year and replace with new ATF. (did not open pan or changed/ clean filter) and now is dirtier. should i flush it or drain fill at my toyota dealership?


what do you guy recommend i should do? Thanks! :)
 
#2 ·
oO Khanh Oo,

Are you planning on doing this procedure yourself of take it to a mechanic/stealership to get done?

There are a few approaches.
(1) Drain and fill run it for a month and then drain and fill again.

(2) Drain the fluid, remove the pan and filter/strainer and then clean the pan and add new fluid.
Then repeat the process in 12 months time.

(3) Pay someone to do a flush and not clean the pan and replace the strainer.

How long do you plan on keeping the car?

I think the pan and stainer should be cleaned. I'm sure there is a lot of buildup on the tranny pan. In your case I think I would do a drain and fill first and then do another drain and fill 30-60 days later but this time after the drain, I would drop the pan an change the strainer and gasket and then refill with fresh fluid.

Regards, JC.
 
#3 ·
It probably wont hurt to do a drain and fill but the best thing would be to have the dealer drop the pan and replace the filter and clean the pan. Then do a flush which will replace the all the fluid.

I don't like the idea of flushing without changing the filter and cleaning the pan. It just doesn't make sense to put in clean fluid and leave the shavings and dirt in the pan and filter especially after so many miles.


Yea!!!!! Tony Stewart Wins at Fontana!!!!!10-10-10 GO SMOKE!!!!!!!
 
#4 ·
tbalon,

I agree with that point about making sure the pan is dropped and cleaned and and strainer replancement. I think it will be hard to get the dealer to drop the pan since they only recommend doing a flush and fill. I wouldn't even want to think of their labour charges to do that! probably would charge 2 hours labour if they had the rate in their book!

When I first called my local Toyota dealer about purchasing the strainer (I'm in Canada just outside Toronto), they said they don't keep that part in stock. They would have to order it from Toyota in California.

I found the part at my local parts place for around $25 (included the new rubber gasket). I've dropped and cleaned the pan three times now, using Mobil 1 Universal ATF (prior to being Universal it was the Dexron III variety). I have the 1st gen Sienna so that's what is uses (Dexron III and not Type IV).

After the first drain and fill, the tranny was noticably smoother without the clunk from first to second gear.

Regards, JC.
 
#5 ·
I will be keeping the Avalon until it dies on me. probably not until 5+ years if taken care of.

I also agree with tbalon. I've read about people getting there tranny flushed, they got bad results afterwards. why is that? Im worry about the flush. :-\ but i am thinking about taking it to toyota dealership to drain & fill because its looks like too much work for me/ not having time to do it. I doubt it never cleaned before (the pan + filter).

What should I be looking for when they drain & fill? (I know they should drop pan and clean filter) anything else? Thanks you guys! :)

also, whats a strainer? ???
 
#6 ·
I think the reason for bad results stems from the fact that the flush is done without dropping the pan and changing the filter. Sure you get clean fluid from the flush but that clean fluid then tends to pick up the particles and and debris from the pan and carries it into the already dirty filter thus causing it to become even more constricted. You end up starving the transmission for lubrication and pressure.

A strainer and filter are similar in nature in that they keep foreign pieces of material out of the transmission. Some transmissions only use a wire mesh as a filter and it is usually referred to as a strainer.
 
#7 ·
tbalon said:
I think the reason for bad results stems from the fact that the flush is done without dropping the pan and changing the filter. Sure you get clean fluid from the flush but that clean fluid then tends to pick up the particles and and debris from the pan and carries it into the already dirty filter thus causing it to become even more constricted. You end up starving the transmission for lubrication and pressure.

A strainer and filter are similar in nature in that they keep foreign pieces of material out of the transmission. Some transmissions only use a wire mesh as a filter and it is usually referred to as a strainer.
OoooH ookk I understand now... Flushing without cleaning filter/pan is bad. drain & fill (clean filter and pan) then flush right?... but after flush, i need to drain & fill (clean filter/pan) another time? to get all the dirty particles out when it was flushed. so its D&F, Flush, D&F?
 
#8 ·
Id just drain it out, n while draining start the car and move the gear shift up n down then shut it off.. The fill with new fluid from Toyota. I'll never take a car back to the dealership to do anything again .. Frig that.. those guys are thieves.. Just get the toyota tranny fluid..
 
#9 ·
Here is a link to pictures of the strainer. It's not called a filter. This is on my first generation Sienna.

Here are some pics of the major points. I cleaned the pan with varsol and a paint brush.

Here is a pic of the strainer and gasket.
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n287/charkinson/trannyfilterkit.jpg

Here is a pic of the strainer on the tranny once the pan is removed.
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n287/charkinson/strainer3.jpg

A pic of the dirty strainer
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n287/charkinson/oldstrainerwithdirt.jpg

Clean pan with gasket in place held by twist ties (makes it easy to install)
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n287/charkinson/applyingtwisttiestopanandgasket.jpg


Rear Differential drain plug
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n287/charkinson/differentialplugwithallenkey.jpg



Regards, JC.
 
#10 ·
Nice pictures JC, thanks... I think it really helps to get an idea across with a good picture(s).

oO Khanh Oo,
Let me just clarify by saying that a "drain and fill" does not always mean that the pan will be removed and a new strainer/filter will be installed. If the pan has a drain plug then a "drain and fill" is simply a matter of opening the plug and draining and refilling the fluid without cleaning the pan and replacing the strainer/filter. This of course only changes out a portion of all the oil in the transmission. Whereas a "flush" should exchange all the old fluid with new. But as JC noted, the "flush" does not always include a dropping of the pan and changing of the strainer/filter, this has to be separately requested and usually adds a higher cost to the "flush".

If you do a "drain and fill" and clean the pan and replace the strainer/filter but do not do the "flush", then you would want to do as JC suggested in item (2) and repeat the process in 12 mo. time because you do not remove all the old dirty fluid which may result in a partial clogging of the strainer/filter you put in 12 mo. ago.
 
#11 ·
Guys,

Also remember that Toyota does not recommend a dropping of pan, therefore I doubt that most dealerships would do this service. If they do It would probably cost you more than $200 for that service.

When I did mine it was a pain (takes more than an hour to do), however the gunk in the pan, magnets was removed and more fluid gets removed this way.

On the strainer there is a metallic film that builds up and its removable on the surface however there is no way to fully remove it from inside the strainer. So for the $20-25 for a new gasket anbd strainer it's as good as new. Last time I did mine I added two "rare earth" magnets to the pan to see what additional gunk I pick up on the next time I drop the pan.

Also if you wanted a new strainer I think Toyota would charge a little more for their part. A service this comprehensive would cost you more than $300 at Toyota. It's worth it, but I would ask to see the old strainer if they agree to do this service.

Here are the prices from 1sttoyotaparts.com for a 98 Sienna.
Filter 98 Sienna List Price : $38.18 Your Price : $27.55
Pan gasket 98 Sienna List Price : $15.06 Your Price : $10.86



Regards, JC.
 
#12 ·
I would not do the flush if it hasn't been done so far. I have heard transmission issues after the flush with high miles on the car. I would drain and fill using the cooler line. It almost replaces the entire fluid. I did it on my 1997 camry at 240,000 miles service.
 
#13 ·
The term "flush" is often mis-used.
Most places use a EXCHANGE machine, which connects into the transmission cooler lines.
They start the vehicle and let it idle, as the old fluid is pumped out by the pump INSIDE your transmission, the machine takes that fluid and replaces it with an equal amount of NEW fluid at the same rate that the old fluid is coming out.
THIS is completely safe.....no forcing fluid in or anything fancy.

You do NOT want and "cleaning" chemicals, just pure transmission fluid.
I expect your 2000 avalon calls for a Dexron III (often called Dex III) rated fluid, which is easy to find.
A synthetic would be best.
Read the bottle to see what specifications the fluid meets.

I would recommend that the transmission fluid be exchanged every 30K miles.
The filter in my 2003 Sienna is a nylon screen, does not do much filtering.
I installed a Magnefine filter in the transmission cooler line which provides filtration with a paper filter media (just like a mini oil filter cartridge) and also has a big magnet.
It has a pressure bypass that opens and lets the fluid bypass the filter media, should the media become clogged (unlikely when used as recommended).
They recommend that the Magnefine filter be changed once a year.

Here is a link to the first in a series of pictures that show the transmission fluid exchange, including removal of the pan and replacement of the filter (strainer).

http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2777272300011220610kWfEeM

Because I am using the Magnefine filter and plan to change my ATF EVERY year, I plan to remove the pan and replace the filter every OTHER year.

If you look forward through the pictures, you will see how I changed the power steering fluid, which uses the SAME Dexron III rated fluid as the transmission.
 
#14 ·
The term "flush" is often mis-used.
Most places use a EXCHANGE machine, which connects into the transmission cooler lines.
They start the vehicle and let it idle, as the old fluid is pumped out by the pump INSIDE your transmission, the machine takes that fluid and replaces it with an equal amount of NEW fluid at the same rate that the old fluid is coming out.
THIS is completely safe.....no forcing fluid in or anything fancy.
Dealer service manager quote: "There is no 'filter' on your Sienna like there was on old GM cars for example. There is just a screen to catch bits if the transmission/differential combo fails." Transmission fluid should be exchanged, not just drained, as described above, as per the 2003 Toyota Service Guide Schedule http://www.toyota.com/t3Portal/document/omms/MSTOY03_MS0003/pdf/01omsour/2003/schedule/toyotasc.pdf.
 
#16 ·
I vote for the full fluid replacement via drain-and-fill followed by cooling lines. I've seen enough debate on the stock "strainer" vs "filter" to not want to pull that pan right now ...
If you saw the film that sits on the bottom of your tranny pan, then you'd be glad you dropped the pan. Last time I did a tranny service I dropped the pan, cleaned it, installed some rare earth magnets in addition to the standard toyota magnets and I installed a magnefine inline filter. I just did a quick clean of the strainer. When I do the next tranny service I will see how well the magnefine keeps that gray gunk from the pan.

Regards, JC.
 
#17 ·
I wouldn't mind dropping the pan if there weren't so many bolts on it, I'm mostly concerned about it leaking after I reinstall it. Did you have any issues? I assume torque settings are in the 5 ft-lb range. And what about those couple of bolts that are partially obstructed by the frame member?

The film on the pan ... that's additives from the fluid that have settled out, no? I know it can't hurt to clean that out -- but does it really hurt to leave it in? When I did a drain-and-fill earlier this summer the bolt was pretty clean ... so I would expect the pan bottom to be similar. Again, I'm trying to justify in my mind whether or not it's worth pulling the pan.

As for the strainer/filter -- did you leave it on the car? Clean and reuse it? Or replace with a new filter, which would be a traditional tranny filter that requires replacing every few years? I would think if you are going to pull the pan whenever you change the fluid, you might as well put a normal filter in there so you don't have to install an external one, since after pulling the pan the filter change takes only a few minutes ...

I'm anxious to hear your observations and advice on the above, since I'm preparing to do a full flush soon ...

Thanks. John
 
#18 ·
John,

I have a first gen Sienna, so there are no obstructions when removing the bolts. The last time I just cleaned the strainer (a basic wiping with paper towels) and cleaned the pan.

I probably didn't need a magnefine, but it's a $15 part and I'm anal about maintenance, so I decided to try it.

I tried to find the links to my pictures that I've posted here, but the link is broken. When I get on the board tonight I will try to look them up on photobucket.

You'll be fine with a drain and fill or flush, I just went overboard since I keep my vehicles a long time.

Regards, JC.
 
#19 ·
Question -- there is a lip on the drain plug hole to hold the threads for the drain bolt ... it looks at least 1/2" high, which means a simply drain through the plug without pulling the pan may leave a considerable amount of old fluid in the bottom of the pan.

JC, when you pulled the pan can you say how much extra fluid was still undrained? And do you think a fluid pump through the fill tube would get most of this?

Thanks. John
 
#20 ·
John,

You might get about 250 ml (maybe less) in the pan. You could jack up and lower the car a few times to try and get some of the fluid out which is in the corner of the pan. There is usually some fluid in the strainer too (maybe 20-50 ml).

I usally get the bolts off on one side of the pan and then position myself as the pan tilts to catch any other fluid. It's best to reinsert the plug before you remove the pan so the fluid won't come out the hole and the side at the same time.

I never used the vacuum extractor and then dropped the pan afterwards. I will do that next time.

Regards, JC.
 
#21 ·
Thanks for the info JC ... so 1/4 quart at the bottom ... not really worth dropping the pan for, but I do have a vacuum pump and container transfer fitting so I think I will try sucking out what I can through the filler tube after I drain from the plug ... let's see if I get close to that amount.

Thanks. John
 
#23 ·
the rest of the system (torque conterter, cooling lines, radiator tubes) all still have fluid in them. 1/2 quart isn't going to make any difference.
This talk about fully draining the pan was all prior to the cooling line flush. I think with the flush you will likely get out virtually all of the old fluid from the TQ, valve body, pump and cooling lines, so that cup or pint of fluid at the bottom of the pan is significant. If it's easy to take out, I will.
 
#24 ·
System flushed today.

I didn't drop the pan, but I did drain through the bolt first ... 4 qts. I tried unsuccessfully to pump fluid out of the fill tube with rury-rigged equipment ... too many bends and my tubing couldn't make it to the bottom of the pan. I got out maybe 1/4 qt this way before I gave up and pulled the drain bolt.

Using the cooling line flush method I cycled an additional eight quarts through the system. I have to say that the first eight quarts of fluid I drained out of the car looked consistently dirty, and it didn't start to clear up until 9/10. So I think 12 quarts total is a good number. (I think if you only drain and fill 4 quarts at a time you're never really going to get the fluid all that clean unless you cycle a couple of cases of fluid through it.)

I got my case of fluid for 4.69/qt so the total with drain plug gasket and tax was about $61.

With the new tranny fluid and Amsoil Severe Gear in the diff and transfer case, the car has that magic carpet feel again :) Ready for another trip to LA :)
 
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